Do you trust your church?

or any church, to give good advice on matters of war?

The poll is anonymous and you can change your response.

I am particularly concerned with the stance of the churches at
present on the war in Ukraine, but we should reference previous
wars because that is usually helpful.

 

I am Pastafarian and I 100% trust my church!
Wait - we don't have a church, anyway R'amen to all true believers!

 

1915 - The advice of the Church of England was in my opinion salutary.

In 1915 the Lord Bishop of London addressed the departing soldiers
telling them they were 'fighting for Christ', 'fighting against the antichrist'
and that each German they kill helped preserve civilization.

The German bishops by amazing coincidence were saying something
functionally similar, that they were fighting for the truth against lies,
and that truth would prevail against lies.

The optics of this were the old high up clergy on both sides were sending
the young men who trusted them, into the trenches to kill each other.

 

The effect on the church was devastating, the proportion of Brits attending
the church of England (Anglicans) has halved with every generation since
WW1.

And it is visible: Britain is littered with closed
churches. and with fairly empty churches.




The most relevant data in my opinion gives an even more pessimistic view.

This graph is optimistic because the population of Britain has been
increasing, many have been Catholics from Eastern Europe: notice the
cyan colored band is doing better than the yellow or gray bands,

It is also optimistic because it doesn't go back to WW1.

 

this is also optimistic because attendance has fallen more
than membership has.

 

You shouldn't trust any church about anything, they're all crooks.

 

Why is 1915 significant?

1. It is factual - WW1 has now been analyzed and we know
that there were elements in all sides that contributed to making
it a great war, and that as now, both sides are blaming the other
side.

2. The church has had ample opportunity to learn from WW1
and... it has learnt nothing, and did it again in 2022,

And that was why I left.

 

I wouldn't trust any 501c3 exempt church (the tax exempt status in the US) on any matters political, as that tax exempt status is technically dependent upon 'apoliticalism' at the pulpit. Which in the modern day, with pretty much everything being politically motivated tends to translate to towing the establishment narrative for profit. Not all churches do that, but a lot of them do, especially the ones that are in it for the money.

 

For Britain to enter WW1 was a matter of choice.

Britain had long relied on a huge powerful modern navy to protect the island
and only by sending troops to Europe could they end up dead or injured.

Britain believed the level of unemployment was due to 'surplus population',
so getting a hundred thousand killed on the 'continent' would be a good thing.

The war was expected to last just a matter of months but instead lasted
more than four years and there were about 880,000 military deaths.

The original plan back-fired and it was very detrimental to the British
economy, and to European economies, and proved to be the beginning
of the end of the British Empire.

 

Blame: in WW1 either side could have been blamed, though it would be
a mistake to put on the blame on either side.

In 2022 the church managed to get it even more wrong because - you'll
have to look into the history as to how on Feb 24th 2022 there ended up
being 180,000 Russian troops in Eastern and some in central Ukraine,
and 700,000 NATO armed, trained and equipped Ukrainian forces there
at the same time, further to the west.

The public has been kept in the dark about everything significant in
the Ukraine War which is why the Episcopal/Anglican/Church of England
lying about it is so unhelpful. The Methodist churches take a similar
line to the Episcopal at present though historically Baptist churches have
been split between pro war and anti war stances.

I agree that 501c3 exemption could prove to be a big factor.

 

My Church stays away from politics. But it is characterized as conservative, not because it is political, but because liberals have abandoned old fashioned American values which we all used to hold in common. Values such as marriage between a man and a woman, fidelity, chastity, family, thrift, hard work, sacrifice, faith, obedience to law, accountability to God for our conduct in freedom, believing that our freedom comes from and is insured by God, that this is the essence of our equality in freedom, and so on. Liberals would say they have progressed. But to us they've gone away after some other thing. So if there is contradiction in this divide, it is their doing. Conservatives aren't as much religious as they are American.

 

A wise choice. As I discovered you either have to keep out of politics or do a lot of research
until you can be confident you have got it right.

The war in Ukraine is a good example. The diplomats, and you could listen to a previous US
ambassador in Moscow or any respected diplomat to find that the war was due to US neocons
moving weapons ever closer to Moscow. And that while Joey Biden narrowed his eyes and
said that Russia had moved 180,000 troops up to the border or into Eastern Ukraine, that
the Kyiv government had already raised an army of 700,000 US/NATO armed and trained
troops in Ukraine some of whom were bombarding the (civilian) city of Donetsk in Eastern
Ukraine.

Just a little research going back 8 years in time or sideways a few hundred miles in space
gives the correct answer, but the public doesn't have time to do that.

As a member of the public I initially took the easy route and went with the 'blame Russia' line
however I'd hoped the churches would do some due diligence before rubber stamping the
'blame Russia' narrative

when the Episcopal Church is run by the House of Bishops made of 300 current and retired
Bishops you would hope that at least one of them had the time to do some compilation
of facts, but I guess the force to conform is too great so there's no point in disagreeing with
the Arch Bishop.

 

When I helped in the church I felt I was fueling the engines
on the RMS Titanic.

I pointed out the ship is following the wrong route, at the wrong
speed, and absolutely nobody was interested.

After zero reflection and zero research the House of Bishops (300 current and
retired bishops) of the Episcopal church world-wide proclaimed that
the war was the fault of Russia.

To underlie their stupidity they used a referendum from 1991 to
claim that the people did of Ukraine did not want to be part of the
Russian Federation, even though the Russian Federation had not
yet formed, and there are more recent measurements of public opinion
readily available.

The bishops were being deceptive and therefore the Episcopal Church
is not to be trusted. There are good individual Episcopal church
congregations, but the overall denomination, the third largest
Christian denomination in the world, is not using it's influence in
a useful, responsible or honest way.

 

Do you think Ukrainians today want to be part of the Russian Federation?

 

It appears it might be like what happened in Czechoslovakia, that the country would like to split in two,
with the North and West being more friendly with the EU and the South and East with the Russian Federation.









The above maps are election results from 2002, 2004 and 2010.

 

The official statement of the church

1. failed to address how Russia moving forces on Feb 24th 2022 into the
Russian-speaking area of Donetsk which had been under bombardment by forces
from Ukrainian-speaking forces from October 2014, could have been
started by Russia.

2. inexplicably used 1991 referendum results when the Russia Federation did
not yet exist at that time, and when more recent results were readily available.

herewith the official statement of the church:

 

Do you think that people in eastern Ukraine still want to join Russia today?

 

1

 

The church that my wife chose does a good job of dealing with really difficult questions.......
I am impressed.......

 

Pres. Putin of the Russian Federation suggest they should declare themselves 'autonomous',
and that was a safer option than 'independent'.

I'm not sure what they did but on Oct 2014 IIRC the bombardment of Donetsk by Western/Central Ukraine
started, it was pretty low level because Kyiv was very short on ammunition up until the Biden
Administration got in and the ammunition finally arrived about 16 Feb 2022 and the shelling got
about ten times heavier.

 

I'm not sure if people in E Ukraine wanted to join or not join Russia but as events
unfolded joining Russia was the only good choice.

Back in Feb 2014 before the US changed the Ukrainian government, Vladimir Putin was
still focusing on turning Russia from a gas station with nuclear weapons into a good
country, and he had stated that Ukraine was not allowed to join NATO and host
NATO weapons. I am not aware that Russia has ever wanted to run any part of Ukraine,
and certainly would refuse to run western Ukraine.

In Feb 2022 Kyiv increased bombardment of cities in Eastern Ukraine causing them to
request protection from Russia, and even then Russia was not planning to stay, but citizens in
Donbas said informants would tell the Ukrainian secret police if they cooperated with the
Russians, so if the Russians wanted any cooperation they would have to agree to stay,
so they did, and allowed 4 oblasts in Eastern Ukraine to be adopted into a part of the
Russian Federation.

That is the situation they are in right now.

 

The options are a bit weird. I don't have any trust in any particular church, but if there is a valid and sound argument, then I'd follow it. I don't know if I'd call that "trust" in the church, just the acceptance of sound argument.

I don't know enough about the stance of churches in the Ukraine war, but there are situations throughout history where I have agreed and disagreed with churches, both in cases that have been pro war or anti war.

 

My church is biblical based not politics based. Patriotism, appreciating our country, traditional values are a strong thread within our members...however Trump is either liked or disliked, some are pro Ukraine and some can't take a side. Politics differ...