If Hamas surrenders and releases all hostages....

I wonder how many Americans are alive today because their grandad didn't die invading Japan. A lot of us born right after the war wouldn't be here because dad would have been busy.

We saved a lot of Japanese lives, too.

 

I don't think so.

 

Fair for you to be skeptical considering my capacity to expand on the topic, but they at the very least recognized Israel and attempted negotiations with them as of the mid 90s which is more than Hamas every did.

 

How many Japanese people are not alive today because of what happened? How many are living with mutations and handicaps generations later? I don't consider one as more deserving of life than the other. I doubt any invasion of the mainland would have been necessary in any case. It would have been a stupid thing to do. They would have surrendered eventually after a complete naval blockade. They were collapsing fast in the end.

 

Yes, I remember the Clinton led Arafat Israel negotiations.

From where I sit the PLO and Hamas are nothing other than murderous thugs. I dont believe a word they say. They are primarily supported by the mullahs in Iran whom I also have zero respect for as well. For the life of me, I cannot understand how a Westerner could possibly put any credence in ANY claim that these people make.

I sincerely do not have a dog in this fight, but when I look at Israel I see reasonable people in a bad situation. When I look at the entire Palestinian/Hamas/PLO/Iran cabal, I think what a bunch of lying, violent thugs that have no problem targeting civilians, not for a military purpose, but rather for the express purpose of killing civilians. I sincerely cannot grasp how everyone does not see that. To me, it is not even a close call.

Am I perhaps wrong in assuming where you are from. Are you from the Middle East? In that scenario, it is easier for me to grasp your position.

 

The question cannot be answered without knowing more facts. No "Gazan" is a civilian. They are beholden to militants who want to destroy Israel. Israel must remove all threats against them.

 

I am not convinced that Nettanyahu regime will ever beleive they have done that, even if they do. So this "we'll stop when Hamas surrenders" line from them is nothing but empty rhetoric.

 

So please tell me how women and children are a threat?

 

Not from the Middle East, no.

I don’t disagree that Israel is in a difficult position. I just also think they squandered what was likely their best opportunity at peace, even if they found Fatah odious. As the regional military power, backed by the world super power, they’ve been in a position to find peaceful resolutions if they wanted them and decided against it.

 

With all due respect, if you don't know the precise details of the deal, how could you possibly know this was their best chance at peace? I personally would be very hesitant to negotiate with someone that I see as a lying, murderous thug because I would not trust them to hold up their end of the bargain.

 

Look at Israel’s response to the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre and its impact on the Oslo accords. Israel fumbled the bag.

 

How so?...and how does this impact our discussion?

 

The Israeli government failed to shut down the Hebron settl meant in the wake of the massacre which inflamed tensions and eventually led to a suicide bombing in retaliation. It was a sensitive time and Israel offered rhetoric, without much action.

 

OK....and how does that impact this discussion? It seems to be arguing against the notion that Israel has never made a mistake, and im not sure anyone has made that claim. This seems sort of small time and irrelevant to the larger discussion IMO.

The US bungled Waco around that same time. I wouldnt use Waco to prove a point about our current involvement in Ukraine.

 

Ultimately the whole history of the situation holds little bearing on the topic of the morality of Israel’s actions in the conflict. Just seemed like there were only so many ways for us both to make the same point over and over at each other.

I believe the Oslo accords falling apart was a pivotal point in time for the Middle East, but I have no delusions of changing your mind on the subject.

Have anything else we haven’t covered? Otherwise this one has probably run its course.

 

Depends what you mean

 

I guess I am just pointing out that 30k bombs used in Iraq doesnt necessarily equate to 30k bombs used elsewhere. I am far from a munitions expert, but in an attempt to quantify without knowing any actual numbers 30k bombs with 5 tons of TNT are not the same as 30k bombs with 1 ton of TNT. One set would be 150,000 tons of destructive power, while the other set would only be 30,000 tons.

Obviously ignore the numbers I used as an example, and just focus upon the concept I am conveying to understand my meaning.

 

All Hamas needs to do to save Gaza is to surrender. Simple.

 

You do know (obviously not) that the majority of the mass of most bombs is shrapnel not explosive?

For example the Mark 84 (a 2,000 lb. bomb and the largest common warhead in the U.S. arsenal though it is "technically" a "2,000 " lb. bomb it in reality has only about 800 pounds of explosive

 

What makes you so sure of that? Considering their clear ethnic cleansing ambitions, why would they stop short of clearing Palestinians out of Gaza?

 

How do you think "iron bombs" become shrapnel? EXPLOSIVES! gees... They blow up and shards of the bomb become shrapnel. (If you'd like some info about how this stuff actually works, ask away. I'm an OLD REDLEG! ... Artilleryman)

 

Fair point. Perhaps shrapnel should be included in my analysis, but the exact same principle applies. Just saying that 30k bombs were dropped in two different conflicts does not necessarily make those equally destructive conflicts.

 

Ahhh.... so you can predict the future to meet your leftist propaganda goals? Do you use a crystal ball? Tea leaves?
It's HAMAS that has it in their charter to destroy Israel... not the non-Hamas residents of Gaza.

 

Not psychic, just able to spot trends in the behavior of fascists.

 

Israelis (for the most part) are NOT fascists