Genitalia vs Chromosomes: what makes you male of female?

To say a third category of disorders would mean that the first two categories were also disorders.

Which would still make it a third sex then. If it's not sex A and it's not sex B, then it has to be sex C, even if that sex gets labeled "neuter", or "hermaphrodite", or whatever.

 

Very true. That doesn't show whether or not the gender determined at conception will be other that the statistical standard for the sex determined at conception.

 

NOT what that link says. You quote a study that you haven't even READ!

 

@Golem,

I'm right, and you are wrong. Standing by for your retraction

Citations:

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pmc › articles › PMC6976999
   Disorders of Sexual Development: Current Status and Progress in the ...
   It has been estimated that its individual incidence is approximately 1 in 4,500-5,500 newborns... The incidence of DSD in 46,XY individuals has been estimated in 1 in 20,000 births and the global incidence ...
2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pmc › articles › PMC5825923
   Disorders of sex development: a study of 194 cases - PMC
   Introduction. Disorder of sex development (DSD) is defined as congenital condition in which the development of chromosomal, gonadal or anatomic sex is atypical ().The incidence of DSD is 1:4500 to 1:5000 live births (2, 3).It is a social emergency as the decision-making in relation to sex assignment has been perceived as extremely disturbing and difficult to both families and health care ...
3. https://journals.lww.com › indjem › Fulltext › 2019 › 23050 › Disorders_of_Sex_Development__A_10_Years.13.aspx
   Disorders of Sex Development - LWW
   The incidence of DSD is 1:4500 to 1:5000 live births.[3 4] The birth of a child with a DSD is a social emergency as the decision-making in relation to sex assignment has been perceived as extremely disturbing and difficult to both families and health care professionals. DSD can also be a medical

 

Wrong.

 

Right.

 

No! You are looking at studies that mention ONE type of DSD. As proven by the fact that your estimates gives immensely dissimilar results. Especially combined with estimates that OTHERS have mentioned in this thread.

....

The number I mentioned refers to ALL forms of DSD. Including many of which the cause is unknown.

In any case, this is IRRELEVANT. Even your lowest estimate means 16 thousand individuals in this country affected by DSD for that cause alone. And some of them might NEED some form of gender reaffirming care. The right DEMONIZING these people as if it were just a matter of choosing whether to wear a suit or a dress to work, is the REAL point of this thread.

Now that you have looked up the numbers and the causes, I expect YOU won't be one of those doing that. And that you will defending their RIGHT to undergo whatever treatment or surgery they want in order to live a more comfortable life

 

Yep, nothing affects the unborn, thalidomide, alcohol, ect. Does nothing.

 

Noting your use of sarcasm, you still haven't presented anything that shows that gender changes. That assertion, BTW, is not the same as the assertion that some people have a gender from birth that doesn't align with the statistically common gender of a given sex. And for that matter, those things you presented do not necessarily indicate that the sex changes. Of course, that really depends on what the actual deciding criteria for biological sex is. If it's chromosomes, then the sex didn't change, even if outward development of organs did.

 

I was just making the point that things do affect the unborn.

 

While true in and of itself, that doesn't mean that all things about the unborn can be affected. And the context is specifically about sex and/or gender, depending on what definitions for the labels you (generalized) are using. So I can't see where you or FMW would be discussing any other aspect of a person gestating and/r being born.

 

Except that sex is not determined at conception.

 

Nothing affects the gender. Knock it off.

 

Yep, nothing affects the unborn, thalidomide, alcohol, radiation, ect. Does nothing.

 

Maybe it is or maybe it isn't. A lot depends on the answer to the OP question. If the answer is chromosomes, then yes it is. If it is SRY presence (an possibility not given in the OP), then it is then as well. If it is genitals, then you would be right as they might not develop as dictated by the chromosomes and/or the SRY gene, which would occur after conception. You have not shown that genitals are the only possible answer or are a factor in combination with other factors to determine sex.

 

You are still being disingenuous with this, not to mention using a strawman fallacy. FMW is not claiming that nothing affects the unborn at all. His claim is that nothing affects the gender of the unborn. Can you show where something affects the gender of the unborn? We'll set aside for the moment that I am pretty sure they are using gender in the previous fashion meaning biological sex.

 

Which means it can absolutely be affected.

 

No it doesn't, especially in light that the issue still hasn't been settled on what is the deciding factor for determining biological sex. Again, I ask, can you show where something changes what biological sex a person is, or show where something changes a person's gender (as opposed to sex)? Stating things that can change other aspects of a person doesn't prove that either of those two aspects can be changed.

 

Genitals result from fetal development depending on gender. Genitals do not determine gender. The poster's premise is nonsense and you have it right. Gender is determined at conception.

 

You need to get past this. Medical science says you are wrong.

 

If you are referring to biological sex, we are in agreement. However, for gender, as it is currently and most commonly being used today, that is not necessarily true. We are seeing differences in brain structure between cisgender and transgender persons of the same biological sex. So then as the genitals might not form as per the standard for the given chromosome configuration, so too might the brain not similarly form per the standard. Now the question is whether this is at conception or not. Do we know whether a particular condition was already going to develop due to the specific genetic combination, or whether something went wrong during development. In either case, it is not a change as it develops in that non standard manner.

BTW, you still have not actually proven what determines biological sex. I think your position is chromosomes, but what about the SRY gene? A Y chromosome can lack the SRY gene, meaning an XY individual will be born with the female genitals, and will not know about their chromosome combination unless something arises that necessitates looking at the DNA.

 

No it doesn't.

 

LOL.

 

You are just complicating something simple. There are two genders and gender is determined at conception. Genetic mutations and other anomalies can and do occur. Nearly every fact has exceptions and gender is no different. We shouldn't build a case from rare exceptions.

 

At conception you are this.



So what sex is this?