Shouldn't Islam Be Banned In the USA (asked of US citizens only)

That is certainly one way to see the matter. The other is to recognize the whole nature of Islam and those parts which are not truly religion but rather politics/law/culture.

The US is under no mandate to protect extra-Constitutional and conflicting laws, only the free exercise of a personal religion.

Think of it this way, what Martin Luther did to unbind Christians from the tyranny of Catholicism, the US will have to do for itself, on its own shores.

Would it be far better for Muslims to do this internally? Of course!!! But that is a matter for themselves, in their own Tahrir Squares...we must do so based on our Constitution for the protection of all those who hold to any religion which is not Islam, as well as for those Muslim who are discriminated against within Islam. Constitutional protections extend to all IRRESPECTIVE of religious precept.

 

Buzzwords ?????

What "buzzwords" ?????

Is the Historically Documented Mass Murderer, Thief, Rapist and Pedophilic Rapist a bunch of "buzzwords" .......or a HISTORICAL FACT that can be verified by ANY non-Islamic History book anywhere in the World ???

Is Whackjob Mohammed's FIRST DICTUM a "buzzword" or a FACT that can be verified by any Islamic Scholar who is Islamic or not ????

Do all the FACTS that can be verified by Islamic scholars, and by those who are not Islamic ...."buzzwords" ???

Given these VERIFIABLE FACTS about the atrocious barbarity of Whackjob Mohammed's instructions in the Qu'ran, does it not logically follow that if there isn't any other Organized Religion in the World that has such atrocious barbarity as the Qu'ran in its Doctrine, that Islam is NOT a Religion but a Political Force like Fascism and/or Communism ........and these VERIFIABLE FACTS are not "BUZZWORDS" but NECESSARY STATEMENTS to prove a NATIONALLY IMPORTANT POINT ?????

I am puzzled by the fact that with all these VERIFIABLE FACTS you still cling to the notion that Islam is a legitimate religion. And, that you support the IslamoFascist Terrorist Swine's position even though they are our OBVIOUS ENEMY.

Why does this 10-15% of the Off-The-Wall Lib "Hate America" Kooks support an enemy that considers us the Great Satan and are hell bent on exterminating us ?????

What made the 10-15% of America so @%$#^&* insane to be America Haters (whilst no doubt hollering that they are "patriots") and steadfastly support our OBVIOUS ENEMY, THE ISLAMOFASCIST SWINE ?????

 

Gypzy,

What you persistently ignore is that with all this FACTUAL INFORMATION about Mid Eastern Islam, which is Mohammed's Islam....... this Islam is NOT a legitimate religion but a POLITICAL FORCE like Fascism, and/or Communism THAT CONSIDERS US THE GREAT SATAN AND, CONSTANTLY DECLARING TO US THAT THEY ARE HELL BENT ON DESTROYING US !!!

IF THAT DOESN'T MAKE THESE MID EASTERN ISLAMIC TERRORIST SWINE OUR @#$&^*% ENEMY WHAT THE *&%^$#@ DOES ?????

And, WHY do you, and your ilk, support these IslamoFascist Terrorist Swine, or continuously make excuses for this human garbage ????

Our Constitution does not support Fascism and/or Communism especially if a similar Political Force like them BLATANTLY HOLLERS AT THE TOP OF THEIR VOICES THAT WE AMERICANS ARE THE GREAT SATAN AND THEY ARE DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN DO TO DESTROY US !!!!!

 

Lol... Since it's their Holy Book that means you can broad stroke every Muslim at being Evil or Fascists. Maybe we should take every Historical Past even of a Group and take it at face value for how those people should be seen today. I guess I'm a vile Baby Killing Indian Slayer who happens to enjoy Slavery because I'm an American.

 

Buzzwords or not, it is without doubt (inflammatory and) ineffective rhetoric.

 

Do not presume to know my positions on Islam.

I've been collecting and collating "factual information" on Islam/Abrahamic religions for over 3 decades, sir, and I've long past any need to use hyperbole, pejoratives, or SCREAMING.

The problem here is not the breadth or depth of my knowledge of Islam (after all I had to correct your repeated assertion that AQ is a Shi'ite org) but rather that your rhetorical style is counterproductive irrespective of the breadth and depth of your knowledge.

Not only is your discourse unpersuasive but it is fodder for those you oppose.

Ilk? Exactly what "ilk" am I associated with, sir?

Please scroll back and c/p any/all of my posts that you find in support of Islam...I'd like to discuss them more fully with you.

Oh no, I insist...really.
You need only go back to #550 to find a whole string of my posts on this topic. Start there, or you may go back to where I originally joined the discussion, your choice.

 

No, its a religion that is also a POLITICAL FORCE like Fascism, and/or Communism THAT CONSIDERS US THE GREAT SATAN AND, CONSTANTLY DECLARING TO US THAT THEY ARE HELL BENT ON DESTROYING US !!!

 

Dixon,

If you consider the peaceful Muslims who reject the atrocious barbarity of the CENTRAL DOCTRINE (FIRST DICTUM, etc) of the Mass Murderer, Thief, Rapist & Pedophilic Rapist, Whackjob Mohammed, the creator off the Qu'ran, because of the impracticality of such nonsense, and the brutality of it....... then I will agree with you that Islam is both a religion and a deadly Political Force. The latter being the Islam practiced by the crazed Mid East Imams of the Iranian Sunnis. And, the even more crazed Wahhabi Shiites centered in Saudi Arabia. Their fanatically, but accurate following of the Whackjob Mohammed's insanity disqualifies them from practicing a religion in the accepted meaning of a legitimate religion that has certain well defined humanitarian requirements.

This duality of this Islam makes the job of our Govt extremely difficult in its quest to find the solution to our War on Terror. Even if some of our leaders are not as clueless as the majority of our leaders......and, the American population in general.

 

LOL! Such idiocy. No, religion is an ideology - all religion. As such its only link, in that sense, with fascism or communism is that they are all ideologies. In this way Buddhism has as much to do with fascism as Islam. All religions dictate politics - ALL OF THEM. You cant say the Pope hasn't and still doesn't sway his loyal supporters to act and vote in a particular manner.

What is "it". You go on the same ignorant position as saying all of Islam is the same when its perhaps the most diverse religion ever.

Yes but the "they" is an insignificant minority. There are just as many ultra-nationalists, revolutionary socialists etc that would think essentially the way

 

I have yet to see it, or rather a valid reason.

ok... we'll 1. I'm a libertarian, not a lib, and 2. I do not want to ignore anything so please enlighten me.

What do you mean by "first dictum"? Also what is your quote from or referring to?

Oh, yes, there is, but even then, just like Islam generally, its is confined to a tiny minority.

What is this "first dictum"? Could you elaborate on it?

From where are these instructions derived?

How did you come to that conclusion?

No, all religions are political forces - Islam is no different in this sense.

How so?

Well I dont hate America, and I certainly dont support terrorists, although that being said there is no such thing as a "Islamofascist" terrorists, since that term is entirely contradictory.

Patriotism is subjective. I'm not American, so I have none, but I do like and support the US' traditional institutions.

 

No I welcome more mosques. More muslims and a better understanding of their intentions here in North America.

 

the more you talk to people, the better opportunity you get to understand their intentions.

most muslims I have met have the same intentions for migrating to a new country as anyone else.

to make a better life for themselves and their families.

Another point is that it would not be consistent with America's values to deny people the right to freedom of religion, so those who argue that Islam should be banned are anti american.

I guess those who think Islam should be banned also think the role Muslims have played in alerting police to potential terror threats (as both the UK and Australia have acknowledged) is part of this takeover bid?

 

MegadethFan,

I certainly see your point:

Only a few Mid Eastern Islamic whackjobs Hate America & Israel with the intent of destroying us.

The "religion" of the Mid East Islam has as it's Central Doctrine, concocted by the Whackjob Mohammed what with the FIRST DICTUM, etc.....to supercede all other instructions in the Qu'ran. Plus the detailed instructions for the TORTURE & MURDER of all the infidels who oppose Islam after being given the option of the word of Islam is....... just like the other Organized Religions of the World that preach Hate and the destruction of Mankind if the people they encounter reject their Doctrine.

As well as the fact that Jesus was a gentle person, preaching LOVE. And, Buddha being also a gentle person devoting himself to Humanity forsaking any benefit to his own worldly pleasures .....all of them are akin to the Historically Documented Mass Murder, Thief, Rapist & Pedophilic Rapist, the Whackjob Mohammed.

You are absolutely correct: certainly, all the creators of these "religions" are alike.

Oh Yes !!!.......It's obvious to any rational person that all these "religions", in principal & deed are alike.

I suppose, as further proof that they are also all "alike" is that the followers of all these "alike" religions walk, breathe air, and eat food.

Oh Yeah.

You certainly sound as though you are a genius and your thinking process is astonishingly awesome !!!

 

daUSSNIPA,

Uh huh.

In line with your wondrous logic: I welcome the Bubonic Plague, the more devastating the better. I really welcome anything that is also worse than the Bubonic Plague because that way I can understand the destruction of humanity better.

Yep. Sure I do.

 

Correct, and out of them only a smaller group actually try to do so. Remember that most jihadis were opposed to the actions of Al Quada and its allies, ie of directly attacking America.

In what form was this 'first dictum' devised? Where can I study it? Is it in the Quran or hadith etc?

Where is this instruction given?

I dont thing they are naturally inclined to perpetuate such action.

I dont believe Muhammad was a mass murderer, thief, rapist, pedophile or 'whackjob'. I believe he was a reformer, far more in line with Jewish prophets, who, for whatever reason (I think he might have had epilepsy) sought through a new form of religious conviction to better society and reform its institutions. He actions do not indicate the character you describe. He never fought offensively, he only stole when he was stolen from, he never raped anyone, and there is no evidence he was a pedophile.

I'd prefer you dont resort to crap jokes and actually counter my argument with some facts.

 

How is Islam destructive to that extent?

 

you really are enough to make one's head explode.

Wahhabism is an expansionist sect INTOLERANT of Shi‘ite Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and Hinduism; in fact, Wahhabists seek to challenge and destroy these faiths. `- MEF

Iran - Shi'a Muslim 89%, Sunni Muslim 9%, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, and Bahá'í (largest non-Muslim minority) 2%.

Please get (at least) your (basic) facts straight!

Finally! a word deserving attention. Duality.

Actually, it makes our job of integrating Islam into our "freedom of religion" system far easier...IF, and only if, reason prevails...IF dopes will stop their "it's either/or" campaigns...IF people will move beyond their entrenched hatred (generally R) or their entrenched ignorance (generally L) positions.

The absolute truth of Islam is that it is BOTH a religion AND a political system.

Our Constitution guarantees Muslims the right to their religion...not their political system.

If we, in America, can help Muslims to unhinge their religion from politics, we can show Iran and the rest of the Muslim world how to do this and preserve their religion in a modern world of Natural Rights.

If we, in America, with all of our advantages to undertake such an endeavor, are incapable of doing this, we cannot expect other nations to be able to do so.

 

You finished that li'l task already?

Nothing to report, uh? Well, being the objective and reasonable soul that you are, I'm certain you'll adjust your rhetoric accordingly.

 

Some Wahhabists do, yes. But if you go somewhere like Qatar, you SEE Wahhabi doctrine that is no where near as repressive, so there isnt necessarily any avenue of progress within Wahhabi Islam per say.

This fact is no different in Islam as any other religion and the tendency you describe amongst believers, that must be expanded to produce more tolerant and efficient politics, is also not in any way under particular strife within Islam as a creed to emerge.

Correct, but most, in fact the overwhelming majority in the US, dont have a 'political system.'

This is easy done - debate with rational and logical pros to such a movement. The greatest threat to secularism in this regard, does not come from Muslims, but rather from the religion right.

ps. natural rights are not modern nor correct. They are nearly 3 hundred years old and illogical.

You shouldn't be 'expecting; ANYTHING form other nations. That is the problem with current international American outlook - you cant control everything to your own advantage. US hegemony is immoral and counter productive to empowering the US. If you want the Muslim world to develop the BEST thing you can do is leave it to its own devises. As current events indicate, it clearly has the independent capacity to bring about progressive change.

 

You're 'lil task' was to find oppressive tendencies in Christianity? Really? haha, Christian, since it was integrated by the state by Constantine was far more oppressive initial than Islam was. Arab power spread out of the Arabian peninsula specifically as a politically orientated movement. The Arabs made no attempt to convert or control the populace to any extensive degree and as a result local population experienced a dramatic change to a state of pluralism and freedom than they had previously experienced under their Byzantine Christian and Persian Zoroastrian rulers.
Anyway, getting back to Christian doctrine early on, a good example is St Augustine's acceptance of the idea of forced conversion and oppression over those who stood in the way of Christian authorities and their desire to expand their rule. The Bible itself is filled with genocide, calls to butcher unbelievers, whether children or women. Such passages cannot be found in the Quran that have the same context of outright brutality and lack of restraint. Oh but yes, Jesus was a complete pacifist, I agree - but Christianity is not a pacifist tradition.

If Cass points out this fact as I describe above, the only person who needs to correct their stance is you, iof you disagree with her.

 

Our contitution says you can practice any religion. Stop living in 1645.

/thread

 

Shouldn't Islam Be Banned In the USA (asked of US citizens only)

One - what a ridiculous question.

Obviously the answer is 'no'.

Can people not read 'Freedom of Religion'?


Two - And even if I was from Iceland, I would still answer the question.

I could give a rat's buttocks for requests that limits chat forum questions to certain people. Everyone can and should feel free to answer. Someone does not like it - tough.


I suspect someone is a bit of a control freak.

 

That was St Augustine doctrine having nothing to do with Christian doctrine in the bible. Protestant reformation and Thomas Paines "Common Sense" Used the doctrine of the bible to demonstrate the illigitimacy of the Holy Roman Empire and monarchs with divine authority. On the other hand, the Islamic Caliphate that ruled for 1300 years of Islams 1380 years of history was acording to the doctrine of the Koran and Hadiths. And those fighting for its return have that doctrine to justify their efforts.

 

Please clarify this last statement.

This fact, as in Islam is both a religion and a political system, is no different than any other religion? Not true. Specifically, Christianity has no political mandates. I don't claim to know the tenets of every religion around the world...I'm betting that Christianity is not alone.

what tendency are you referring to??

That simply is not true. Over 60% of the Islamic text is devoted to politics -- that makes it unique.

What the hell is that even supposed to mean? We, not most but all, in the US have a political system: it is called a Representative Republic, constitutionally mandated to be a secular one.

Do you hear me ranting?

That, sir, may well be the dumbest statement on PF evah!
#1 - Muslims are part of the religious right...you think they intend to vote for homox marriage tomorrow?!
#2 - since the Koran teaches a theocracy not secularism, Muslims will need to work their way to it.
#3 - Jews, Christians, et al, have been living in a secular society in the US for a couple of centuries.

duh. don't you think it's time for Muslims to catch up?

oh, ****. I've already stated several times in this thread that modernizing Islam is a job for Muslims.

And I have already stated several times in this thread that I am addressing the OP: Islam in America -- not Islam in Syria or Sudan.

The BEST thing we can do is stay on our own soil and peacefully, with debate and legislation, decide/develop what American secular Islam will look like...and in doing so, set an example for other nations who wish to separate mosque and state.

to their political situation? or to their socio-religious situation?

The last political upheaval generated a new religious state...I wouldn't speak too certainly until the tea leaves have settled, were I you. "Current events indicate" it is time to cross one's fingers, hope for the best, and see what happens next.

 

Yeah, people can read Freedom of Religion. And can you read Article 6, section 2 of the Constitution ?, and more than half of this thread ? - which has been refuting your puny statement for 3 weeks now.

Also, Islam is not a religion. If you had read the thread, before jumping in here in a momentous display of ignorance, you would have known that.

And I don't give a rat's ass for what you do or don't give a rats ass for.