Who did the most to win WW1 and WW2

Japan's aim in launching the war was to force the US to sue for peace. That's not even up for debate among historians. Seems to be here though. I guess I'll give with actual historians, thanks.

 

General Douglas MacArthur was the Supreme Allied Commander in the Pacific. Essentially, all Allied land forces in the theatre were under his command.

No, their aim in launching the war was to create the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere

The US simply happened to be the biggest stumbling block in their achieving this goal. But so were other European nations, like the UK, the Dutch, and the French.

And Japan knew they would never militarily defeat the US. Their goal was to make the war to expensive for the "shop keepers" of US to want to fight, and hopefully get them to agree to a quid pro quo ante bellum, except with the US giving up the Philippines (which Japan believed rightly belonged to them anyways).

 

I like it how you disagreed with me and then said it was what I just said.

 

Ok here we gooooo. The First World War I would have to go with France, the Second World War I give it a split between Russia for defeating Germany and China for beating Japan.

 

Bollocks......those missing generations of all nation's involved in the family feud!

And just consider they wouldn't let there cousins the Tsar and family into England the peasantry may have revolted as well!

Me my mine...nothing changes! The German royalty, the usurpers in England have lots to answer!

Regards
Highlander

 

You must just be trolling. There's no way any respectable student of history could come to such a conclusion. Please explain to me how China, which at the time was in the midst of a civil war, did more to defeat Japan than the United States, who crushed their Navy, destroyed their Air Force, and bombed them into submission. The CCP was an effective resistance force, but they didn't do much more than tie down second rate garrison troops.

 

You are 100%%%%%%%%%%%% right. I could never understand WW1. Those monarchies should have ended by 1700, what a ludicrous form of government.

 

I totally agree!

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Regards
Highlander

 

not sure with WWI - but definitely agree the Soviets for WWII, in both Europe and Asia.

it was the Soviet invasion of Manchuria - NOT the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - that finally brought about the end of the war with Japan.

 

He probably meant Russia, in which case he would have been correct.

 

Actually, I did not. Because it is still the opposite then what you seem to think.

Admiral Admiral Yamamoto was the main war planner for Japan. And even he said he would "run wild for 6 months in the Pacific", but from then on it would be a defensive war unless Japan did major damage to the US fleet. And that was the most pessimistic outlook of the war from Japan's point of view.

While leaders like Admiral Yamamoto and General Kuribayashi had no question that they could not win a protracted war against the American's, the political leadership had other beliefs. And while they had fought on the side of the US in 2 wars previously, they had forgotten what they had learned.

The Politicians in Japan believed that the war would only last around a year. They also made several other critical mistakes, including believing that the attack on Pearl Harbor would crush American morale.

They believed that they would run wild for that year, and during that time destroy most of the US naval power. At that time, Japan would be the ones going to the US laying out peace terms (which is what they had done in several previous wars). And that being a nation of "shop keepers", the US would naturally agree with Japanese demands.

While you are right in the basics, you are very wrong in the details. With Shinto and the Bushido Code, they assumed they would win any war they entered into, and that they could then decide when to end the war and on what terms.

 

Russia did little to defeat Japan. They invaded Manchuria after much prodding by the U.S. a few weeks before Japan surrendered. The Soviets lacked the naval power to ever consider an invasion of homeland Japan. To even think that Russia was instrumental in the defeat of Japan is wrong.

 

I was not even sure how to answer that. It is just so absolutely silly, I was thinking it was not even worth a reply.

The invasion of Manchuria fell between the two atomic bombings. And by that time, Japan had already lost most of it's holdings in the Pacific, the Philippines, Okinawa, and big chunks of East Asia.

If they had not quit by then, what makes anybody think that an invasion of the Soviets would make them quit? Anybody that understands Showa era Japan would understand how patently silly that claim is.

You might as well claim that the British left the American Revolution because they won the Battle of Guilford Courthouse (the British won that battle, but it was a Phyrric Victory).

 

Actually it's thought the whole run wild for 6 months quote is as made up as the terrible resolve one.

 

A million of "second rate garrison troops".....really? You are such a fanboy.

 

outside the US, historians are less informed by US national pride, and rely far more on the historical record:

http://japanfocus.org/-Tsuyoshi-Hasegawa/2501

 

On August 9, 1945 the Soviets invaded Manchura and in less than two weeks completely and utterly routed the Kwantung Army, which was the main occupation force for China and Korea and consisted of more than 1 million Japanese troops. When the Soviets attacked, the Kwantung Army had been stripped of its best units and most of its heavy equipment....which were sent to the Pacific theatre. The Kwantung Army also consisted of a lot of raw recruits and was designed as light counter-insurgency force. The KMP and CCP were fighting a mostly guriella operation. In adddition, the Kwantung had little in the way of air assets because Japanese pilots and aircraft had been largely deloyed to the Pacific where they were destroyed by U.S. forces.

So KGB, before you throw out the word Fanboy, read a little history and get back to me.

 

This is a dangerous argument in that it will get the entire topic offhand. Go read the massive thread that already exists. In a nutshell you've explained one single viewpoint that is by no means the overriding opinion of historians, both inside and outside the U.S. People's aversion to nuclear power tends to encourage them to rewrite history.

The Soviets were of virtually no threat to mainland Japan while the United States was vaporizing a hundred thousand citizens with one single bomb. The idea that the Soviet invasion was instrumental in the surrender of Japan is wrong, period.

 

nothing dangerous about it.

primary sources record what is said at the time.

 

Go read the other thread, there are dozens of primary sources cited that contradict your assertion. Many of us put a lot of time into that thread and don't want to do it all over again for one person.

 

Thank you for being civil.

I will have a look, however it is important to remember that historians often disagree on issues, and it is often important to look at a variety of documents.

there are a number of historians who have a similar interpretation.

this is not revisionist history, but a recognition that often, the accepted version of history is interpreted through the eyes of the victor.

On numerous occasions I have seen "history" changed, depending on later events.

 

Lets discuss US fanboy version of history in more details.

Such as? Are you so sure Japanese army had heavy equipment at all? You know, the fact that US army stuck so much in fighting garrisons in small islands don't mean that Japan had heavy equipment.

1 million men for fighting with partizans, while losing war in the Pacific with USA. Sorry, can't believe that.

Not going to be a serious trouble anyway.

 

No, the "6 months" is an accurate quotation, so is another one where he said that they had "kicked a rabid dog".

I did not use the full quote, but here it is. This was his response when asked by the Cabinet what his appraisal was of a war against the Allied powers:

"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."

The quote is generally given in a shortened version, since he did run wild for 6 months, then had the major striking portion of his carrier fleet destroyed at Midway.

However, the "Sleeping Giant" is either made up, or a more dramatic version of what he actually said. His quote on the matter is "A military man can scarcely pride himself on having 'smitten a sleeping enemy'; it is more a matter of shame, simply, for the one smitten. I would rather you made your appraisal after seeing what the enemy does, since it is certain that, angered and outraged, he will soon launch a determined counterattack."

 

Those are all true statements. However, you have to realize that the decision to end the war was not made by the Diet, or the Prime Minister, or anybody else in the conventional Government of Japan. And yes, they all almost universally rejected the Potsdam Declaration, and continued to insist they would continue to fight no matter what the outcome was.

And of course the Cabinet was also assured that the US only had 1 bomb. When the news reached them of the second bomb being dropped, this made them worry that there were many more of them in reserve.

The offer of surrender came not from the Government, but from the Emperor. While the Government was willing to watch the nation go down in flames, Emperor Showa was not willing to do this. And the invasion by the Soviet Union had little to no impact on his decision to capitulate. That was done entirely on the use of the Atomic Bombs.

On 10 August, the Emperor met with the President of the Privy Vouncil, and 2 former Prime Ministers to discuss future options. In it, he discussed the use of Atomic Bombs (and the inability to prevent their being used) as a major factor.

I have given serious thought to the situation prevailing at home and abroad and have concluded that continuing the war can only mean destruction for the nation and prolongation of bloodshed and cruelty in the world. I cannot bear to see my innocent people suffer any longer.

The Emperor wanted to surrender then, but his advisors asked him to hold off until they got a response to their request for clarification on the Potsdam Declaration as to what "unconditional surrender" would entail.

The clarification arrived on 12 August, and on 14 August the Allies did one of the largest bombing missions of the war. Among the facilities heavily damaged was the last oil refinery on Japan. That evening, the Emperors advisors realized that a possible coup was brewing, and that the Emperor would be in danger unless he either gave the word to continue fighting at all costs, or made his decision to surrender quickly.

The night of 14 August, Emperor Showa informed his cabinet and other ministers that he would order the surrender. Even though prior to this the cabinet had been deadlocked, the followed the will of the Emperor and ended all debate, agreeing unanimously.

And that decision was so unpopular with some members that it still caused the Kyūjō Incident coup attempt.

Then you have his actual surrender speech (the first time the voice of a Japanese Emperor had ever been broadcast):

TO OUR GOOD AND LOYAL SUBJECTS:

After pondering deeply the general trends of the world and the actual conditions obtaining in Our Empire today, We have decided to effect a settlement of the present situation by resorting to an extraordinary measure.

We have ordered Our Government to communicate to the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, China and the Soviet Union that Our Empire accepts the provisions of their Joint Declaration.

To strive for the common prosperity and happiness of all nations as well as the security and well-being of Our subjects is the solemn obligation which has been handed down by Our Imperial Ancestors and which lies close to Our heart.

Indeed, We declared war on America and Britain out of Our sincere desire to ensure Japan's self-preservation and the stabilization of East Asia, it being far from Our thought either to infringe upon the sovereignty of other nations or to embark upon territorial aggrandizement.

But now the war has lasted for nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone - the gallant fighting of the military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of Our servants of the State, and the devoted service of Our one hundred million people - the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.

Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should We continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.

Such being the case, how are We to save the millions of Our subjects, or to atone Ourselves before the hallowed spirits of Our Imperial Ancestors? This is the reason why We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the Joint Declaration of the Powers.

We cannot but express the deepest sense of regret to Our Allied nations of East Asia, who have consistently cooperated with the Empire towards the emancipation of East Asia.

The thought of those officers and men as well as others who have fallen in the fields of battle, those who died at their posts of duty, or those who met with untimely death and all their bereaved families, pains Our heart night and day.

The welfare of the wounded and the war-sufferers, and of those who have lost their homes and livelihood, are the objects of Our profound solicitude.

The hardships and sufferings to which Our nation is to be subjected hereafter will be certainly great. We are keenly aware of the inmost feelings of all of you, Our subjects. However, it is according to the dictates of time and fate that We have resolved to pave the way for a grand peace for all the generations to come by enduring the unendurable and suffering what is unsufferable.

Having been able to safeguard and maintain the structure of the Imperial State, We are always with you, Our good and loyal subjects, relying upon your sincerity and integrity.

Beware most strictly of any outbursts of emotion which may engender needless complications, or any fraternal contention and strike which may create confusion, lead you astray and cause you to lose the confidence of the world.

Let the entire nation continue as one family from generation to generation, ever firm in its faith in the imperishability of its sacred land, and mindful of its heavy burden of responsibility, and of the long road before it.

Unite your total strength, to be devoted to construction for the future. Cultivate the ways of rectitude, foster nobility of spirit, and work with resolution - so that you may enhance the innate glory of the Imperial State and keep pace with the progress of the world.

Notice, the Atomic Bomb is clearly mentioned as a major cause. However, there is no mention of the Soviet Union at all, other then being one of the Allied Powers that issued the Potsdam Declaration.

You would have a good argument, if the surrender was done by the Government (Diet, Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, etc). But they had no impact on the decision, it was done unilaterally by Emperor Showa.

 

Yes, Japan had quite a bit of "heavy equipment", including some impressive artillery and tanks. Among these were over 2,000 Type 97 tanks. This class was heavily used in China, as well as Malaya and Singapore. They were also used during the Invasion of the Philippines, and the defense of Saipan, Iwo Jima (where they were placed in pits with all but the turret covered), and on Okinawa.

However, because of the conditions in the Pacific Theatre, they were of little use in defense against the "Island Hopping" campaign of the Allies. This is why they were only used on the major islands like Saipan, Philippines, and Okinawa.

And you have to realize, the Japanese had a major disdain for the Chinese. To them, the Chinese fighting them were no more then bandits. And most of the soldiers there were considered to be "second rate". Discipline problems, Kempeitai, raw recruits (who were then shipped to other areas once they were blooded), Penal Battalions, even conscripts from other conquered territories like Korea.