If history is 'written by the winners'...

According to Napoleon, history is only a bunch of lies. And he is right. And he is not the 1st one to realize this, this was always known, for 1000's of years. Yes, your school history and literature class is only propaganda, starting at the 1st day in elementary. There IS a reason why history keeps repeating itself.

 

In today's information age, nothing can happen without someone filming it and it appears on Youtube 5 minutes later, I'd like to think that in the future, starting with now, history will be written by everyone.

 

I feel like there's a lot of fat in these posts so I'm going to try to go straight to the meat. If you feel I've bypassed anything significant feel free to raise it again. Some things you seem to think I am disputing which I am not and so we're in a circular argument that doesn't go anywhere.

It definitely opened the door for Hitler's rise to power but so did the rise of Marxism which only Hitler and his political party seemed to take seriously.
It was a major contributor to the war and I don't know why you would think I wouldn't agree with that. The OP wasn't about the war, it was about the ramifications of it.

You take things too literally. You are of the minority. That was my only point.

Germany did not have the land mass to handle the full might and manpower of a fully prepared Soviet offensive. If the Germans waiting for the Soviets to attack rather than launch a pre emptive strike the Soviets would have swallowed the whole nation before it made front page news in France, England or America. I don't see how you think any assistance would have arrived to help hold back the hordes. Germany was on its own.

 

He worked to keep the peace before the war and he offered peace numerous times after it began. He offered it again after France had been conquered.

 

Yeah I'll agree we're getting expansive in our discussion here, I was using alot of historical facts and reading like a textbook because I thought you might be missing certain aspects based on assumptions. Such as the one you had previously made reoland in another thread.

The only issue I'd like you to address that you didn't is this :

I think the agressiveness of land grabs by Nazi Germany is very important here. Especially considering Hitler was keenly aware of the possible consequences of his actions and broke his own word to the British that he gave at Munich.

I'd also like you to admit that you have abosolutely no basis for your assumption that the Americans and British would have violated Belgian or Dutch Sovereignty any more than they violated Swiss or Swedish neutrality. The evidence based on the 'Allies' (I don't use this term as a Good Bad Term, but rather as the accepted term for the collection of nations opposed to Nazi Germany's Agression) respect for the neutrality of nations (with the arguable exception of Iceland) does not corroborate your statement at all. And the only contendable exception (Iceland) was done with the utmost politeness, which cannot be said for German occupations of the low countries, Norway or any of the other countries they invaded.

 

Like Munich, where he demanded Studenland on the premise that he would not invade Czechoslovakia if it was returned? (Broke that word in 1939)
Or where he demanded a large swath of territory from Poland that contained almost no Germans simply to have access to Danzig and East Prussia and barely waited for a response before he launched the armies over the border?

As for the offer after France had been conquored, conquored is a good word because the peace offer included no return of the parts of Poland that Hitler had not previously demanded and a refusal of return for the French government in exile and the installation of a pro-Nazi government without elections in France.

If Hitler really thought these terms were acceptable to the British then he was quite clearly insane.

 

Well, I think we can safely take Julius Streicher at his word considering there were photographs to substantiate his claims, if I'm not mistaken.
So I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to think the Soviets could have beaten confessions out of SS men. I also did not say it happened. I said I read it happened. I could look for something later although it isn't a major point of contention for me. We'll see. I don't find it that unreasonable or that much of a stretch to think there is probably some truth to things i've read in years gone by about Soviets torturing SS men to get the answers they were looking for. After all, they're Soviets, people who assigned people rape duty and told the world the Germans were making soap out of people.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rcBM_w-2K8&skipcontrinter=1"]TORTURE OF JULIUS STREICHER IN HIS OWN WORDS. April 1946..wmv - YouTube[/ame]

http://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=23559

 

Also, relating to Soviet treatment of people:

"We cannot escape the conclusion: Soviet state security organs tortured their prisoners not only to extract confessions but also to put them to death. Not that the NKVD had sadists in its ranks who had run amok; rather, this was a wide and systematic procedure."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

 

Two different outlooks for two different ages for two different situations.
I can only discuss death and Soviets and atrocities for so long before my stomach starts to turn (which was about 10 minutes ago) so I don't want to go into the darkness of the days all over again, but Jefferson did not live in a mechanized world post industrial revolution with the Soviets casting a shadow over his homeland.

I said in the first page of this thread that I admire the Third Reich's imagination and idealism which wasn't really to be found anywhere else in the world at that time. Just death, corruption, and greed, and stupidity.

The French Revolution, also, was a complete disaster, complete with blood thirsty mobs, rape and murder. That isn't reflective of Jefferson, either.

 

He was not a combatant, he was a newspaper publisher. He was also convicted under the Nuremburg trials, he and those in the Nuremburg trials were afforded a great deal more respect and courtesy than those who were convicted under Nazi trials.

“...For his 25 years of speaking, writing and preaching hatred of the Jews, Streicher was widely known as ‘Jew-Baiter Number One.’ In his speeches and articles, week after week, month after month, he infected the German mind with the virus of anti-Semitism, and incited the German people to active persecution... Streicher's incitement to murder and extermination at the time when Jews in the East were being killed under the most horrible conditions clearly constitutes persecution on political and racial grounds in connection with war crimes, as defined by the Charter, and constitutes a crime against humanity.”

They did not need to have a confession from him, he was convicted on the basis of what he printed for 25 years. He did not have a connection to the Holocaust nor any intimate knowledge of such. It was likely he was just beaten because of his beliefs by overzealous Russians, similar to how Nazi's beat and tortured their political opponents into giving confessions.

He asked for evidence of beatings to coerce confessions about the Holocaust, this is not evidence of that.

 

You were saying you had read that the men had been tortured for confessions about the Holocaust, suggesting maybe that they were admitting to things they didn't do.

The NKVD tortures of enemies or political opponents is reprehensible, but no different than the efforts of the Gestapo under Nazi Germany. You have also provided no evidence that confessions about the Holocaust of Nazi War Crimes were gained by the use of torture. Or that the confessions have any relevance in light of the plethora of evidence that states that the War Crimes and Holocaust happened in the first place.

 

I was posting that as an example of how even prominent people were treated in American prisons to point out that it isn't far fetched to believe that allegations of forced confessions of lesser known SS men by Soviet captives isn't beyond imagination. They had a history of it.

I'm also not shedding any tears for Julius Streicher. To be perfectly honest there are not many leaders or people in positions of prominence from the Third Reich that I have any warm feelings for. Most of them I despise despite my admiration for the Reich as a whole.

 

So you made a statement that you didn't need to make (confessions were achieved through torture) to defend a position you don't agree with (if the confessions were incorrect then there was no War Crimes by the SS, which you have seemed to admit happened) that you can't prove through any source of evidence except for the torture of an admitted and convicted war criminal?

Why did you even make the claim in the first place then? To prove that the NKVD and Soviet soldiers committed torture? Nobody was disputing that claim. Just like I hope nobody disputes that the SS And Gestapo and SA were also guilty of the same tactics.

I'm just really confused as to what you are attempting to prove here.

 

I made an off the cuff comment about having read of Soviets forcing confessions because I thought we were having a conversation and not a fight to the death in a court of law. I am not denying the persecution and ultimate mass murder of the Jews in occupied nations. You seem to have forgotten that or missed some of my original posts. I said I find it an impossibility that six million Jews were gassed. Do you remember the OP?

 

My point is that why are you trying to provide evidence for an 'off the cuff' comment. You said you read it, and were asked basiaclly "where" or to provide evidence that your off the cuff comment was correct. Instead of saying "Yeah, I can't provide any" you brought up something that doesn't really have an relevance.

I don't think 6 million Jews were gassed either, that's a very large scale that (likely <- Ignore this) isn't true. (edit: I had likely without parenthesis before, but I'd like to remove it, because I know for a fact that 6 million Jews were NOT killed by the gas chamber method, see my next statement)

I believe between 4-6 million Jews were killed in concentration camps (as well as over 3 million Russian PoWs, a large number of gypsies, gays, and political opponents). I believe that gas chambers were used towards the end of the war as they attempted to accellerate the program. I think it's likely that only 500,000 - 1 million people were executed by the gas chamber method and that the rest were shot, starved, worked or beaten to death.

Just so I'm clear, you don't dispute the numbers, you dispute the scale of the method of gas chambers correct?

 

That is correct.

 

Actually they did have a point there, many of the crimes the Germans were tried for didn't actually exist at the time they committed them, they were invented for the trial.

That in itself wouldn't be so bad if we had then stuck to those laws once created but now our own countries commit the same crimes claiming might makes right and international law does not matter because no one has the power to enforce it. America so eager for their victor's justice at the end of the war is not a party to the ICC.

 

I have heard arguments that set out to prove the existance of large scale gas chambers, and I have heard the counter arguements.

I am undecided as to their use, certainly to the degree that is passed on as irrefutable fact.

But let's not forget, we have already established that lots of anti Hitler propaganda was passed on into the mainstream as fact, as well.

I know lots of people who believe that Hitler wanted to create a World of blonde haired and blue eyed people. I consider that entirely false, yet even Neo Nazi's today, they take it on as a fact. It really wasn't.

Then we had the Holocaust Museum passing off ordinary bars of soap, as being made from the fat of Jews, until as recently ago as ten years.

There are literally hundreds of examples such as this.

Now, all I am proposing is this.

If I were witness to an alleged crime, and you were the officer on the case, how reliable would you find me as a witness, if in fact hundreds of my claims were proving fake?

Would it be fair for you to call all my other claims into question, at least?

No one gave a stuff about the Jews of Europe, either in Britain or the US.

They 100% knew what was going down, in terms of general ill treatment, they even reported it in the press of the day, yet there was not a political will to let them migrate to either the US or Britain.

There is 100% no question that the Jews of Europe could have been spared, if the US and Britain had been prepared to absorb them.

And it was often Zionists who were the most vocal in not letting them migrate to the US and Britain.

I wonder why...

 

Of course it could.

 

Jeez.

I have just been reading up about just HOW large scale the rape of innocent German women, in Berlin was, by what appear to be Russian soldiers every bit, and perhaps more brutal than the SS.

More brutal?

Well, AFAIK, rape of an inmate of a camp, by an SS officer could result in him being executed.

Am I correct to assert it was mainly the same Russians that 'liberated' the camps? With what I said before, one has to wonder how they might have treated some of those they had just 'liberated'.

Moving on.

Let's take this figure of six million Jews being killed, which is the figure usually offered out.

Let's assume it to be true.

Now, when the camps were liberated, how many Jews were liberated?

Were there millions, tens of thousands, or even millions?

As an aside, I didn't realise, at least I believe, that Hitler actually married Eva, in the end, and there is apparently a doc with Eva Hitler signed. Allegedly, this took part in his Fuhrer Bunker, before both were said to have taken cyanide, then ordered that their bodies be burned.

Again, this might be 100% Russian BS that we took on as fact.

Maybe there was no Fuhrer Bunker, as elaborate as was suggested.

After all, remember America telling the World about the many sophisticated underground worlds that 'terrorists' were living in, which turned out to be totally false?

Even the whole bit about their marriage document being found, and them agreeing to take cyanide, then ask colleagues to burn their bodies, that could be lies, as well, to be honest.

 

Yes, SS officers were not permitted to have relations with Jews.

I brought this up in the thread already, Read the "Dairies of Berlin" if you want a primary source on what happened, it's truely sickening.

But that has nothing to do with proving or disproving atrocities committed by Nazi Germany.

Tens of thousands from each camp most likely, however the numbers liberated do not reflect 'survivors', for instance at Bergen-Belsen concentration camp in 1945, 60,000 prisoners were found alive, but 10,000 died within a week of liberation due to typhus and malnutrition.
Allied soldiers killed thousands unwittingly by overfeeding malnourished prisoners who's bodies could not ingest the food properly becuase they had been malnourished for so long.

You're so focused on the Jews, is it just their numbers you're concerned with - we've already established in this thread that they were in fact a minority in the number of non-combatants killed by Nazi Germany.

I'm personally glad that Hitlers body was never recovered in the same respect that Bin Ladin's body is not buried on land. It would have provided a shrine for those who believed in his horrible ideals and racist ideology and strengthened their movement.

This is a rediculous statement, the Bunker was found and explored and there are even documents that were recovered from there . Plans for its design exist, and there are interviews from people who in fact were there at the very end.

What I said was irrefutable was the fact that Gas Chambers existed (I've stood in more than one) and they were used. The scale of that use is debatable, was it used for 150 prisioners in an experiment (the fact that there were multiple gas chambers suggests that this was likely not the case, but it is also true that not all the gas chambers were used - Dachau for instance was not used for its intended purpose while those at Auschwitz and Birkeneau were definately used) or was it used for large scale killings. That debate will never be answered definitatively because those that know the truth are dead and without new records there is no proof one way or the other.

You cannot deny that some were used and multiple chambers exist however. That point is not debatable.

Claims made by some Jews have been exaggerated, there is no doubt of that, in a similar way that some Neo-Nazi's claim that there was no Holocaust or large scale killings or that concentration camps even exist. Mainstream sources however are not academic sources, and if you really want the truth you need to go to properly sourced peer reviewed academic resources to find what the most accurate understanding of the events are - just like you should be doing for any historical point of contention.

 

I do not doubt that the claims are stretched, by those with an interest in creating a Jewish state, and Neo Nazi's. However, Neo Nazi's are usually ridiculed for getting one thing wrong, while it doesn't seem to matter how many bits of fake evidence, and false assumptions show up, on the Jewish side.

The difference is that Neo Nazi's are not patted on the head, and given a part of Europe that is to be forever more a Neo Nazi state, yet Zionists are patted on the head for creating a Zion Nazi state.

 

Re: Solution of the Jewish Question

Letters from Nazi officials confirming the production and use of Gas Chambers in concentration camps

Important Excripts:

"With reference to my letter of October 18, 1941, this is to inform you that Oberdienstleiter Brack of the Führer Chancellery has agreed to collaborate in the production of the required shelters and gassing devices."

"there are no objections if the Jews who are not capable of work, are eliminated with the Brackian remedy. In this way, events such as those that, according to a report in front of me, took place on the occasion of the shootings of the Jews in Vilna, and which, considering that the shootings were carried out in public, can hardly be excused, will no longer be possible. On the other hand, those capable of work will be transported for labour in the east."

The Wannsee Protocol

Outlines the plan for the Final Solution, including the numbers of Jews expected to be eliminated.

Numerous Primary Sources showing requisitions for matrials for gas chamber usage.

Doctor of Auschwitz's Dairies from the time as well as Post War Memoirs confirming Gassing.

"In the morning attended a special action from the women's concentration camp (Muslims); the most dreadful of horrors. Master-Sergeant Thilo (troop doctor) was right when he said to me that this is the anus mundi. In the evening towards 8:00 attended another special action from Holland. Because of the special rations they get a fifth of a liter of schnapps, 5 cigarettes, 100 g salami and bread, the men all clamor to take part in such actions. Today and tomorrow (Sunday) work."

Special Action referred to gassing.

" Particularly unpleasant was the gassing of the emaciated women from the women's camp, who were generally known as 'Muslims'. I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups of women. I cannot say how big the group was. When I got close to the bunker [I saw] them sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the behaviour of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited them, as they begged and pleaded to the SS men to spare them their lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed. As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely shocked by what I had seen I wrote in my diary on 5 September 1942: 'The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharführer Thilo was right when he said to me today that this is the anus mundi', the anal orifice of the world. I used this image because I could not imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.

SS-Doctor Kremer at a hearing on 18 July 1947 in Cracow"

Testimony of Brack, regarding gassing of insane people in Germany.
"Testimony of Brack, regarding gassing of insane people in Germany.
Quoted in "Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals" - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I, p. 876-886.

Q: Witness, when adult persons were selected for euthanasia and sent by transport to euthanasia stations for that purpose, by what methods were the mercy deaths given?

A: The patients went to a euthanasia institution after the written formalities were concluded - I need not repeat these formalities here, they were physical examinations, comparison of the files, etc. The patients were led to a gas chamber and were there killed by the doctors with carbon monoxide gas (CO). "

These are all primary sources Brack's are specifically important.

Gas Chambers were used.

 

I think it is interesting that the fate of the Jews was being reported in the US media, all along, yet where did this information come from? Who told the US media that there were large scale persecutions of Jews, in Europe, by Germany? Well, logicallly, you would guess Jews themselves, right? That some Jews managed to get information over, of what was going on, and this was then reported in the press.

But then if it was the Jews of Europe themselves who were reporting this, then that doesn't make sense, for if they were reporting it, why were so many Jews being deceived, even still, into believing that they were being relocated, to a better life for them.

That is why we are told that so many Jews almost benignly stepped onto trains, and gave up their goods, for which they were sometimes given recepits - that they were literally duped and deceived. But if report of their demise was reaching the US press, I still fail to see how the same sources were not able to spread the word, and warn Jews not to be deceived, and that they were not being relocated, after all.

Presumably, if the Jews were then equipped with the knowlege that they were getting deceived, and were being sent to act as slaves, then they would have done more to rebel, no? And as powerful as the SS were, that would have proven some size of resistance movement, no?

But for some reason, the news being reported in the US media, about the fate of Jews, news that was coming from Jews in Europe, it did not appear to be getting shared with Jews in Europe!

I am of the view that the missing piece in all of this, was Zionists.

It is my view that, as mentioned, with their end game of a Zionist state in mind, they were prepared to see 'dispensable Jews' sacrificied, by the Nazi's, and that it more likely the word that was spread by Zionists, rather than assurances by the SS, that deceived the Jews.

 

From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz.
Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255:

"At another, later gassing--also in autumn 1941--Grabner* ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children. As the Zyklon B--as already mentioned--was in granular form, it trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight. "
Testimonies from Auschwitz

No doubt you'll tell me that these are all Jewish conspiracy sites even though that is merely where they are most commonly found on the internet and are reproduced in numerous locations of non-Jewish origin in print form.