1984 or Brave New World?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by MegadethFan, Jun 18, 2011.

?

Is the future of society to be more like Brave New World or 1984?

  1. Brave New World

    11 vote(s)
    31.4%
  2. 1984

    13 vote(s)
    37.1%
  3. Neither, it will be ok

    2 vote(s)
    5.7%
  4. Something different.

    9 vote(s)
    25.7%
  1. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    17,385
    Likes Received:
    123
    Trophy Points:
    63
    In the modern age of globalization, disparity of power, wealth and living standards, we in the West are at liberty to bask in the wealth most people on this planet do not have nor could dare dream of. With our abundant capacity to indulge ourselves through daily life and pursue our pleasures with increasing ease, we are as close as we have come to freedom and individual fulfillment - however, are we really on the way to achieving such ends?

    In an age of information, we are increasingly bombarded with 'facts' and data in such a way as to prefer news about celebrities and political gaffes, rather than actual news stories and the state of world affairs. We have so much information available to us, the truth has been drowned out in an environment where reality is meaningless in so far as it doesn't appeal to our indulgent preferences and selfish desires. As the world has become more integrated, it has become smaller, as the world itself becomes more accessible. However, in widening our horizons, modern society seems to has also had the intrinsically contrary effect of allowing us to insulate ourselves in a drowning sense of apathy as we seek to amuse and entertain in an ignorant manner rather than rationally address the crucial social problems of our age.

    On September 11th, 2001, close to 3000 people died in Manhattan, whilst around the world, 16,000 people died of starvation and preventable disease. Events that followed indicated the most advanced societies of the world were still not immune to the crippling power of fear and the way governments can control such feelings. But more importantly, we acted with billions and billions of dollars to stop a small group of criminals, but we did increasingly less to confront the other problems facing the world - one's that are far more destructive. On September 12th, 2001, there was no terrorist attack in Manhattan, but another 16,000 people died around the world due to starvation and preventable illness. It seems our priorities are not in order.

    In, George Orwell's 1984, the world is seen to have slumped into a state whereby people are ruled by fear, and the government seeks to control everything and rewrite the past to suit its needs. Social production is maintained by destroying excessive production through war so that social conditions can be maintained for optimal control. People support the government through fear, intrinsically hypocritical thought the refuses to question the existing system, and a sense of hopelessness.

    In Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, the world of the future has developed into a simplistic state of affairs where people fear and want for nothing - hence they do need to question existing order. They are drowned in information and contentment, so that the truth is seemingly pointless. Their desires are met, so they have no compulsion to address the contradictions of society, or the backward state of those outside of their fortunate position.

    It would seem, whilst some of Orwell's ideas were correct, the future is perhaps what Huxley predicted. We have become so indulgent and consciously secluded we are entirely apathetic and careless to the real problems of the world - we have created our own tyranny.


    But perhaps you disagree? I think the world is going the way of Brave New World, although perhaps who think it is more like 1984, or even something different. Perhaps you think society isnt that bad to begin with?
    What are your thoughts?
     
  2. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,176
    Likes Received:
    1,075
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    So it's what we think will happen and not what we would prefer?

    Long text and I can't be bothered to read it again, so I'll just assume that I got the gist of it the first time.
     
    los2rec and (deleted member) like this.
  3. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,759
    Likes Received:
    126
    Trophy Points:
    63
    '1984' is a profoundly silly book, because the Inner Party lacks any believable motivation (how unutterably boring to be stamping on a human face forever) and because the class who presumably made the Revolution have managed to shrink into comic Victorian gang of Dickens characters in notime flat. 'Brave New World' is marginally more convincing, but not very - again, the utter boredom of perpetual 'pleasure' kills the illusion - nor does Huxley give any very convincing method by which the capitalism of his day, let alone ours, could turn into what he portrays. Clearly the actual future is what you'd expect when a single species swarms as this one has - the destruction of the species and its environment. The interesting question is how long we've got.
     
    los2rec and (deleted member) like this.
  4. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2008
    Messages:
    8,174
    Likes Received:
    174
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I don't think every people is ruled by fear, but certainly a key one seems to be at the moment. I don't think they can be blamed for that, the threat may not or may not be as great as some would have us believe but it certainly exists.

    I think you are right that they have tried to create those conditions of contentment whereby people have enough and don't seek to question the status quo.

    The conditions include full employment though, for both male and female, so that people also have no time or energy to notice any of what is going on, nor ability to challenge as their time is fully occupied. In full employment they work shifts and hardly see family members, they cease to socialise publicly and therefore there is no opportunity to discuss, analyse and communicate about what is going on in the world.

    Full employment has broken down. But they have moved on to bigger and better things from their point of view, in downsizing and cutting costs in order to maximise profit. Perhaps their priority is no longer the man in the street. Perhaps they are better equipped now to deal with that threat if it arises. Who knows...
     
  5. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    17,385
    Likes Received:
    123
    Trophy Points:
    63
    This was an interesting comparison of the two books' philosophies;

    Social critic Neil Postman contrasts the worlds of Nineteen Eighty-Four and Brave New World in the foreword of his 1985 book Amusing Ourselves to Death. He writes:

    What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egoism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that our desire will ruin us.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World
     
  6. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    17,385
    Likes Received:
    123
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I disagree. The driver in 1984 is fear and need for security, which gives the party its power. The idea of survival seems to be the core of the Party - mentality manifested in an absolutist faith in the Party, symbolized by Big Brother.

    Well it seems to be working rather well in society of late.

    Well the story goes that there was some huge war, but I would argue the need for sustaining social conditions of overindulgence could see people hand over their rights willingly.

    That is a high possibility. Species, on average, last around 200,000 years according to an article by one biologist I read, and thus our time is up.

    I like to think I'm an optimist and we could survive for pretty long time.
     
  7. Someone

    Someone New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2010
    Messages:
    7,780
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    0
    We're going to get the best of both!
     
    los2rec and (deleted member) like this.
  8. Clint Torres

    Clint Torres New Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    5,711
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The USA will not be in such a good position in the future. everything that has happened in the last 15-20 years has set forth a domino effect of failures politically and globaly, to the point of no turning back. Reason is it can' be corrected is "you can't fix stupit".
     
    los2rec and (deleted member) like this.
  9. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    17,385
    Likes Received:
    123
    Trophy Points:
    63
    LOL In what way?
     
  10. 762nato

    762nato New Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2011
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think it will develop into some kind of post apocalyptyc world where those who love freedom will be shooting it out with Muslims everywhere.
     
    los2rec and (deleted member) like this.
  11. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,759
    Likes Received:
    126
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Sounds as if you like shooting and don't give twopence for freedom except to kill people (at least in fantasy) against whom you have prejudices.
     
  12. Clint Torres

    Clint Torres New Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    5,711
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    0
    IMO people who lack ability to evaluate events and information, would be better off using tools they had in their level of thinking, like going back to the early 19th century and apply those skills to their present day life. It would be the easiest thing to do. Simple stuff for simple people.
     
  13. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,759
    Likes Received:
    126
    Trophy Points:
    63
    But does the Inner Party feel this fear and desire this survival? It seems like a pretty pointless sort of survival to me, meeting no sort of human need.


    (i.e. the pleasure principle).

    Only in theory, I think - most people don't get much pleasure, though a lot pretend to. Taken to an extreme it is addiction, of course, the easy answer to Lawrences's 'question "What For?"', but seldom a very convincing one, I think. Capitalism simply doesn't have grown-up answers concerning human happiness, does it?
     
  14. los2rec

    los2rec New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    545
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Cuba and China have had full employment, most communist block countries did, and those time limitations you are describing about not meeting family members and not socializing were never true. What do you mean by full employment?
     
  15. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2008
    Messages:
    8,174
    Likes Received:
    174
    Trophy Points:
    63
    In high employment, people here chose to have both male and female partners working.

    Many work different shifts. Some of the women worked night shifts and even "weekend warrior" (they worked 12 hour shifts and only at the weekend). This means people just don't see each other, don't eat together, don't have any leisure time together etc.

    When children are involved, the parents often put even very small babies into childcare. I had no inclination, I would have much preferred to be at home but when everyone else is doing it and it's the culture to have material things, it's very difficult not to fall in.

    The parents have no time to think about anything but the immediate. They are so busy, things like religion, politics, it's all irrelevant. Even with family, they are ships passing in the night. How can they care about politics?
     
  16. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    25,739
    Likes Received:
    684
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think somebody has taken a survey course on political theory or English literature. :)
     
  17. los2rec

    los2rec New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    545
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks. Now I understand what you mean. My (less-than-full-house) parents exhibited this attitude too and did everything to beat it into me too. Luckily, I have a special talent to lie the entire Moon off the sky and thanks to this I managed to escape with almost half of my sanity still at my disposal.
    But more importantly, your description shows a WORLDWIDE statistical trend, namely that if nobody is available to enslave us, then we are most eager to enslave ourselves, because if not then we will not be the flashiest/popular boys in class and the girls will laugh at us.

    By the way, I wonder, is there a way in this universe not to get ignored because of being unmaterialistic or because of loss of time after running after money? It is great that I am an alien, this way I don't have to suffer this double-ended stick.

    Even more luckily, planet Earth has a few countries, such as Spain and Greece where some balance between materialistic and unmaterialistic was achieved, too bad they get the worst disrespect for it. Do the British, German, and the French complain that they have to foot Greece's debt, because they don't realize that what they foot is really their own materialistc cultural imbalance before someone even more materialistic such as us Americans kick them ass even more after enslaving ourselves even faster?

    When my sentence expires on this planet, I will sell alien abduction insurance to everyone to visit my crib and figure out how to actually exist. It is possible that the source of Earth's problem is overpopulation because this is what drives the energy of the trends so irresistable.
    :sun:
     
  18. Viv

    Viv Banned by Request

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2008
    Messages:
    8,174
    Likes Received:
    174
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Whatever that means. Do excuse me for being naive enough to attempt to engage. [​IMG]
     
    los2rec and (deleted member) like this.
  19. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    25,739
    Likes Received:
    684
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Political Forum is like the Memory Hole from 1984. And I'm like Winston Smith leading a life of quiet desperation. :)
     
  20. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    17,385
    Likes Received:
    123
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Sure, they are totally deluded, yet consciously so.

    But the point is they create the need, ie desire for security and authoritarian stability because the society functions entirely through and upon fear. They only function is for society to survive - for people as a whole and individually.

    Yes, people seek happiness, which is why I cant see such a society emerging, however if it did emerge, there is the possibility it could be maintained through a cycle of fear and dependency.

    Well capitalism doesn't really have answers for anything per say - like any political-economic order, but I do think its one of the better systems.
     
  21. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    17,385
    Likes Received:
    123
    Trophy Points:
    63
    What do you mean?
     
  22. Iolo

    Iolo Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    8,759
    Likes Received:
    126
    Trophy Points:
    63
    MegadethFan - We don't know enough about the Inner Party to make such a judgement, in my view - they appear to be the nearest to a free element in this fantasy, and to spend your life stamping on human faces seems to me vacuous. As to capitalism, it replaces all normal human bonds with the cash nexus, and offers us trade goods in return for meaningful lives - and then, often, fails to deliver even them.
     
  23. los2rec

    los2rec New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    545
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I liked your post, it made me realize a lot of things, and the observations you reported have a legacy that reaches a lot further than I originally thought. I think your post was excellent.
     
  24. los2rec

    los2rec New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    545
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    HEHEHE I like the picture. Very good. :laughing:
    :sun:
     
  25. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2011
    Messages:
    25,739
    Likes Received:
    684
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Dear MegadethFan,

    What do I mean? I was just curious about how long it would be before you asked that question. I knew you would be compelled to ask. Haha. I mean no offense to you.

    Winston Smith
     

Share This Page