1984 or Brave New World?

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by MegadethFan, Jun 18, 2011.

?

Is the future of society to be more like Brave New World or 1984?

  1. Brave New World

    11 vote(s)
    31.4%
  2. 1984

    13 vote(s)
    37.1%
  3. Neither, it will be ok

    2 vote(s)
    5.7%
  4. Something different.

    9 vote(s)
    25.7%
  1. Clint Torres

    Clint Torres New Member

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    Highly unlikely. Reality of the wold powers suggest other countries will choke off the USA financially. That is how the USA will be defeated. In the 21st century the global interlace of nations and relationships where the weathy ones dominate the poor nations will be the key to success.

    Hence, it will be a slow and gradule decline. It will be unlikey even the simplest of thinker would wake up one day and see the entire world change overnight, and go from arrogant nationalist to desprate rebel.

    The USA's inability to maintain wealth will only cause other more wealty nations to view the USA as a failure.

    USA spends way more than it can make. It consumes way more than it can produce. And it has no ability to innovate. We have been living off the rest of the world's innovations, poor and gullible. As the world gets smarter, the greedy and wealthy turn their consumption on the USA's poor and gullible.
    Americans make the same bad choices and expect different outcomes.
    The education in public schools continue to produce dropout factories of more failures than success. It is the status quo that will never change.
    Americans have no ability to see through the broadcast media that keeps them angry, excited and divided.
    Americans continue to be maipulated into making bad choices. As Boosh #1 said, keep them fat dumb and happy, and you can do whatever you want with them.

    Result = failure.
     
  2. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    so... could you elaborate and what you said, or not?
     
  3. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    And out of the ashes of this failure which system or social structure will emerge?
     
  4. Bluespade

    Bluespade Banned

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    Yep, you sure can't.:rolleyes:
     
  5. Serfin' USA

    Serfin' USA Well-Known Member

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    The powers that be are smart enough to know that it's much easier to control people via complacency and hedonism than outright brutality.
     
  6. LibertarianFTW

    LibertarianFTW Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like now.
     
  7. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    So, you think we're on the more 'fear' side of 1984 than in a state of 'i dont care about my freedom' side of Brave New World?
     
  8. JavaBlack

    JavaBlack New Member

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    Brave New World.

    Orwell's idea was fitting only for a brief period of time before the Nazis and the Soviets fell apart. The only "Big Brother" governments that actually retain that kind of power are small isolated spots like Cuba and North Korea.

    Brave New World on the other hand-- the logic of it plays out every day.
     
  9. speedingtime

    speedingtime Banned at Members Request

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    Definitely Brave New World.

    Mass consumption has made people completely indifferent to the things that really concern them.
     
  10. MegadethFan

    MegadethFan Well-Known Member

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    To the two comments above,

    I totally agree, but I do think governments do employ aspects of Orwell's writing - specifically fear and hatred of others. There is also an extensive tendency of double think within society, I believe.
     
  11. Automaton

    Automaton New Member

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    I think the world is indisputably more similar to Brave New World than it is similar to 1984. This is very good, and it's also the first time in human history where we have the opportunity to say that. If there's nobody to read a book, then books don't deserve to be read. As long as individuals are progressing towards a form of society freely, there is no problem. I do not believe this is the result of any conspiracy or manipulation. People genuinely enjoy their lives better now. What we really need to be concerned about is the sort of system in Atlas Shrugged, because when you subordinate the rational, individual mind to any society, that system is immoral and not free. Free men can exist in a sea of slaves to pleasure-- it's been working out quite well now for the past fifty years.
     
  12. Automaton

    Automaton New Member

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    Since when do you get to decide what people should be individually concerned with? How have you become privy to every individual's personal interests at a level they, allegedly, do not understand? I trust them to pursue their freedom more than I trust you, or anyone else, to impose it on them.
     
  13. speedingtime

    speedingtime Banned at Members Request

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    I probably should have worded it better. I believe people are shielding themselves from the problems with society with consumption.
     
  14. Automaton

    Automaton New Member

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    Sounds to me as though you'd prefer people to be unhappy and unselfish (i.e., not pursuing their own best interests as free men) then content and disinterested in your pet issues. People are pursuing their preferences and selfish desires, rather than yours or mine. That is freedom.

    There are problems with our society, but even if what you say perfectly described the state of affairs, it wouldn't be a problem.
     
  15. Automaton

    Automaton New Member

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    How so? If that makes them happier, who are we to deprive them of their 'shields'? Why should they have to be bombarded by the problems we see in society if they don't want to?

    People concerned with a problem should bear the task of fixing it. As long as our liberty is not being infringed upon by their consumption, they are free from moral blame.
     
  16. speedingtime

    speedingtime Banned at Members Request

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    Nowhere am I saying that they should restrict how much they can consume or anything like that. It starts with a change in attitude and public opinion.

    Indeed, it is a choice, but it is a choice that is heavily influenced by things outside our control. If we're raised in a society where people are obsessed with consumerism and putting off social ills, well, then chances are they will grow up to find that the norm. Soon there might not be anyone left to see the problems, as is the case in Brave New World. I personally find that troubling.
     
  17. JavaBlack

    JavaBlack New Member

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    I can agree to some extent that they shouldn't be deprived.
    But, no, they are not absolved from moral blame.
    Hiding your head in the sand while the world goes to Hell and continuing to consume beyond what is sustainable contributes to the problem.

    Obviously being punitive about it will only make the situation worse.

    But if you avoid the truth on purpose, you bear partial responsibility for the problems.
     
  18. Automaton

    Automaton New Member

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    If the problems are such that absolutely no one notices them, in what way are they problems, and to whom? This isn't a matter of being tethered to absolute reality by negative consequences. It's a societal issue based on value judgments that, if not accepted by any in a populace, ceases to be a matter of concern.
     
  19. JavaBlack

    JavaBlack New Member

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    Post-modernism will be the death of us.

    It's possible to say that problems don't exist because people seriously do not value the things endangered by the problem.
    But when people simply ignore a problem because it is not convenient to address because they don't like to think about it, it does not cease to be a problem.

    The fact that people naturally react like this to stress does not make the problem cease to be a problem. It just makes the problem harder to solve (which will ultimately lead to more stress).
    That's what representatives are for: to be put in charge of solving macro-level problems while we go about our daily business.
    The problem is that our current culture, while it demands more and more out of politicians, refuses to learn a thing about the issues and prefers to drown itself in mindless entertainment.

    The problem emerges in that people who drown themselves in entertainment have to make the following choice:
    1. vote anyway, but from the standpoint of an ignorant moron.
    2. don't vote and cede power to interest groups that are more willing to keep on the issues AND other ignorant morons.

    It's not hard to see how this turns into a dystopia.
     
  20. Automaton

    Automaton New Member

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    The significant departure from the past is not that the common man has become less interested in politics. It is true that-- mostly because the qualifications required to vote have lowered, expanding the voting base-- voters are generally less concerned than they were when property ownership, gender, etc. were qualifications to vote. Furthermore, political knowledge, insofar as it can be objectively determined, has declined marginally. But these are not the important, significant trajectories.

    The real trend is towards wealthier people with a greater means to pursue happiness. I see no problem with that, and I don't think the pursuit of personal happiness is a distraction or a means of evasion. I think it is an end in itself, and a good end at that. We are currently discussing this issue via a medium unavailable to our ancestors, and much superior to their methods. Clearly, not everyone uses their means of procuring happiness "incorrectly."

    I find the future promising for all of the reasons you forgot to mention. Compare our lives to the brutal, nasty, short lives of our ancestors. They would have laughed at your concern that we might be too prosperous to pay proper attention to the loosely-defined problems of universal prosperity and easy access to information. They'd be too busy working constantly and serving their feudal lords to consider your argument much further than that. For many centuries, life has improved, and improved, and improved. Many like to talk about how technology will negatively impact peoples' lives, which is a good sign; that's how you can tell things are about to get better. It's a lite repeat of the religious dogmatists' argument that progress is a sin.
     
  21. JavaBlack

    JavaBlack New Member

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    People don't have to stop enjoying life to be aware of problems.
    They just have to stop being so addicted that they ignore the real problems facing them.

    If people continue to ignore problems, eventually they (or their kids) will not be enjoying the things they enjoy today.
     

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