572,000 in 1999-2016

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by CCitizen, Nov 30, 2019.

  1. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    I do not know on what level should support be provided. In my opinion, it is Society's duty to help people who are failing. Once again, this is a value judgement which can neither be proven nor disproved.
     
  2. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A communal, or communist society might take on that responsibility. A republican society, a society built as a collection of individuals, would not have any such obligation or expectation. The expectation is that the individual live their life responsibly and not asking anything of others except for the limited, shared, responsibilities explicitly asked of government and authorized by the people for government.

    You describe a government with subjects that the government owns and owns their labor and productivity. I describe a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, that is subject to the will of the people rather than the people subject to the will of government.
     
  3. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, Wild Capitalism terribly fails people who can not support themselves. People who are a danger to themselves are harmed even more. All Humans have innate value -- even those who are not productive.
     
  4. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What can be proven is that the Federal government has no authority to provide for the care of the individual.

    You should think about the nature of our relationship with government. Is it one where a class of people, simply by their existence and breathing air, are lords and master over you or are you the master of your own destiny with the ability to make your own decisions about the most important bit of private property you own - yourself? For me, I am by nature free. My forefathers, and I'm thankful that they did, agreed to create a limited government empowering that government with an explicit set of powers, retaining all other power to themselves. I'm bound by that agreement for a limited government but, like my forefathers, I do not otherwise surrender my liberty to a bunch of people who have no right to authority over me.

    Our founders chose not to create a king. There is no one with power over me simply because they were born or because some other born person said they have it. The only power over me is what is derived from the Constitution that created the government. When those who are in government act outside the Constitution they are acting as tyrants without authority other than the authority of their guns and prisons.

    We may disagree on whether government should be a nanny government and provide cradle to grave to the masses but, hopefully, we can agree that in order to provide that without tyranny then the Constitution would have to be changed.
     
  5. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    100 million unarmed people murdered by their governments in the last century..yes.. murder is horrible and death by guns equally so.. BUT....
     
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  6. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    I am agnostic so I agree with the Japanese. Stop trying to screw with my rights based on your mythology
     
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  7. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    Then cease bringing up what cannot be proven or disproven. The belief of one who recognizes they are on a sinking ship and looking to flee, are not of importance.
     
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  8. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    How has the socialist government of the nation of Venezuela turned out for its people?
     
  9. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's not capitalism that fails; it's liberalism. The most homelessness occurs in states and cities run by Democrats - Democrats who are ignoring the filth and disease they are creating, ignoring their failure to provide the care you say government should provide, so they can spend their time, energy, and money, supporting criminal immigrants and fighting Trump.
     
  10. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Most people in USA belong to Abrahamic religions.
     
  11. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, without food, shelter, and medical care, people can not live, much less have Freedom. I would support even a more controlling government as long as Positive Rights are provided.
     
  12. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Humane Liberalism succeeded in Canada and Scandinavia. In USA the situation is more difficult.
     
  13. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    to prevent a controlling government, the people need to be armed
     
  14. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    Is the united states in the nation of Canada or Scandinavia? If not then the claim is completely irrelevant, and serving only to derail the discussion.

    Do not bring them up again.
     
  15. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    Meaning that social darwinism would ultimately be supported on the part of yourself.
     
  16. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    nvm
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  17. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then you are a total socialist and don't belong in the U.S..
     
  18. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    I think Welfare State can be implemented in USA. Eventually, it will be implemented globally. That will be more difficult.
     
  19. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    All political persuasions should be welcomed in USA.
     
  20. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    Exactly what will serve to prevent the united states from becoming exactly like the nation of Venezuela?
     
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  21. Levant

    Levant Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But with freedom they can have food, shelter, and medical care. Before the types of freedoms protected and recognized in the United States, a single-room shack was a common home for even middle-class families....And yet they had a home. Before the freedoms recognized in the United States, medical care consisted of bleeding, leaches, and witchcraft. Modern medicine that even the poorest among us gets access to comes from people having the freedom to work, create, invent, and to keep the products of their efforts.

    You don't see a lot of medical innovation, new technology, or, for that matter, food or shelter, coming out of Cuba and Venezuela. In reality, as far as communist nations go, Cuba is among the most successful in history, if you can call killing 100,000s of your citizens success, or keeping 50 year old cars on the road success. If you're suggesting that is a better way of life than what we have to day, I'll argue that you're wrong. Liberty is better than oppression and liberty is what turned thousands of years of extremely slow human technological progress to the logarithmic increase in technological growth rates that we've seen in the last 200 years.

    For most of the world, and certainly all of the United States, the human condition is pretty darn good. Those who want to take steps that would stop our development and growth may not , should they succeed, ever know what might have been and may never complain because, in reality, our condition is so great today, but looking back, had you had your way 200 years ago, the condition was not so great. Do you want us to roll back to that? Who knows what the next 200 years does for the human condition but, whatever that can be, it can only be better than today if we maintain freedom to own the fruits of our own labors.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  22. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, very few people with Disability have freedom without outside assistance. A person who does not have food and shelter does not have real freedom. A person who can not afford medical care has even less freedom.
     
  23. Well Bonded

    Well Bonded Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Who cares?
     
  24. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    No individual has ever gone on record as saying that life is either easy or fair. The real world runs on the notion of survival of the fittest. Social darwinism is real and the way of reality. If such cannot be accepted as being fact, such is ultimately too bad.
     
  25. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    In USA 2020, GDP per capita exceeds basic needs for survival by a factor of 100 at least. We work much less then people over a century ago. We consume much more. Society has enough wealth to ensure Universal Well-Being.
     

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