82% of Americans say religious freedom is key to ‘healthy American society’

I think you are trying to make a universal statement where it doesn't belong. I am not religious in any way. Yet I understand the value that religion provides to society. It is very real. It is no surprise at all that every civilized society and some uncivilized ones have had religion. I believe most non religious people feel that way. It is a small minority of people who think they are being harmed by religion that carry that torch. In fact religion has helped the society in which they live.

 

With all due respect, your post has nothing to do with my comment.

I NEVER said religions don't help in any way.
I NEVER said religions have no value.

My post (the one you responded to) is simply addressing the issue of people want *ALL* freedoms for themselves but balk about people outside their <whatever> scope being granted the same freedoms.

Here's two recent examples...Everything was OK when...

1. White males were receiving preferential treatment in hiring and promotions. The argument started because other people (besides white males) were being hired. Look around this forum and you'll see that people on that side are basically saying that no minority or female was hired/promoted based on merit.

2. At one time only white people appeared in commercials and ads. The argument started because minorities and homosexual people were being shown. Again, look around this place. They are upset about this and even say things like "it's being shoved down my throat.". Yet, when only white heterosexual people were being shown it was not considered to be shoving anything down the other side's throat.

https://www.prri.org/research/prri-rns-poll-nones-atheist-leaving-religion/

 

Depends on how one defines religion. In China, their religions, if you want to call them that, did not have gods but are more of a philosophy, like Confucianism and Taoism. In Buddhism the Buddha isn’t a god in the Christian sense, but more of an idea, a state of being that one strives for.

Growing up I was well aware that there were no gods or angels and often wondered why people believed. I could see the benefit from a leader’s point of view, after all Christianity has a habit of making people docile and easier to control. But from a personal point of view I couldn’t escape certain incontrovertible facts. Like the fact that the more intelligent one is, the less likely one is to fall for religion, or other such silliness. When my parents dragged me off to church every Sunday morning, the assembled people never impressed me with their intelligence. Many of them creeped me out. Worshipping a dead guy hanging on a cross, and pretending it made them better people never made sense to me. A friend of mine is fond of saying that Christianity is a death cult. A sentiment that makes a lot of sense.

When I was in fourth grade, attending a Catholic school no less, I was put in a special class for children who read too fast. It was where I first encountered others who saw religion and church as I did. It was something I repeatedly encountered in college. Those students who were always talking Jesus, seemed to never be the top students. It was in a philosophy class, listening to the arguments of students unable to break out of their Christian mentality, that brought me to see the intellectual blocker that religion is. That is, if Christianity reflects reality, then much of science and human advancements in understanding is at odds with that reality. Yet we can demonstrate that the science point of view does a better job of reflecting reality, as we can create reliable products from that understanding. No such understanding comes from a religious point of view. As I repeatedly saw in college, and then again and again in the workplace, that religious belief is an impediment to understanding.

 

Religion is fine, belief is fine, faith is fine
Religious extremism and organized religion are a plague upon this Earth however.

 

The problem is that all of those people (myself included were I asked) wont be thinking about the same thing when they say "religious freedom". Very few people would say they're opposed to religious freedom but lots of people will be opposed to something that some other people consider a religious freedom, hence some of the practical conflicts that apparently inspired this survey in the first place.

Also, how can you call religious freedom be a God given right when there is doctrine explicitly prohibiting worship of any other gods? That doesn't sound very free to me.

 

Yeah, they always forget the part where their religion outlawed freedom of religion.

 

Not to mention that their religion also outlawed freedom of expression, freedom from cruel and unusual punishment and habeas corpus.

 

No religion is any great friend of freedom by its nature and I truly cannot understand how anyone can say any religion is. Can someone explain that to me?

 

Back before water was invented I went to the library to research the medications my doctor wanted to prescribe me. I printed out the information and wrote my questions on the paper so I could talk to him about it. He was furious that I dared looked up the information. He literally ripped the paper from my hands, tore it and threw it in the trash. That's the last time I ever laid eyes on him. There is no way that I'm just going to blindly take medications regardless of who is prescribing them.

I shared that because this is exactly happened to me regarding religion. It was just a slower pace. For instance, one time I was at my grandmother's house after her brother-in-law passed away. Nobody talked about death and us kids weren't taken to funerals. It was really confusing for me because so-and-so just wasn't there any more. So, back to that day with my grandmother...I asked her why God let him die. She hit me so hard I literally fell off my chair. I never asked anybody in our family a question about religion after that.

But, I was stuck. I was sent to Catholic school and everyone I knew was some form of Christian (we were told those people are not "real" Christians as Catholics because it's been around for centuries. I'm sure you've noticed I'm a very curious person (lol). I had a mountain of questions and didn't know who to ask.

So, I was thinking about those experiences and every road lead to...

Why can't I ask this question (about medications, religious rules, purple unicorns)?
How is my asking a threat (to my doctor, my grandmother, my religious teachers, etc.)?
What am I not being told?

In that sense, it makes sense that people who subscribe to the same religion as their parents/guardians are not likely to question their beliefs because they have no other frame of reference. In order to "fit" in the tribe (for religion, politics, unicorn club) one must adhere to the idea that what they believe is correct and it follows that all others must be incorrect. So, I wouldn't necessarily agree with you that these people have lower intellect than non-believers. It's more likely that they've never questioned themselves on WHY they hold those beliefs. That's not dumb. It's just lazy.

 

Which was the FIRST thing Christianity did once it became dominant. If you follow the rites of the Catholic Church they pretty closely follow those of the State religion of the Roman Empire. The Romans derived most of the legitimacy of their power from the fact that they worshipped the State, (not the Emperor, that came later) but they found that the actual philosophical expression of this "belief" (Faith?, whatever) which was called Stoicism was very unsatisfying. Christianity is uniquely gratifying in this sense, particularly to slaves, so the Romans took it over, and then it took over them.

 

Damn

You have one MEAN ass family. And your Doctor seems a real piece of work too.

The reason I'm an atheist is because of my father. He sent his boys to Catholic School because my mother told him to, but then he said that if either of us ever became priests he would no longer have that son.

 

Examples?

 

I'm not sure why you consider religion and science to be mutually exclusive. Even universities connected to religions have science departments. You can major in most scientific disciplines at fine universities run by churches like Notre Dame and Baylor. My high school was operated by Jesuit monks and priests. We had chemistry, physics and mathematics classes available there. There were no religion classes that I can recall. The teachers, mostly Jesuit brothers, taught the classes competently. The Vatican has a Pontifical Academy of Sciences. I studied zoology (the animal part of biology) in college. I subscribe to evolution and natural selection. Yet I don't understand why religion and science need to be at odds. One can believe in God while supporting Charles Darwin's work.

Science is a discipline that works to explain observable and testable phenomena. Religion is a belief system that, among other things, provides comfort for many people who don't deal well with mystery. It also provides a framework for morality that is certainly beneficial to a peaceful society.

Having said that I am not a religious person. I prefer to deal with observable and testable phenomena than with beliefs. But I have respect for the believers. I understand the benefits of religious beliefs even though I don't hold to them myself. What is wrong with that?

Having said that

 

No argument there. I just criticized making things universal. There are as many opinions and positions as there are people.

There is that universality again. When I worked in a large corporation in the 1970's I ended up working for a woman who was promoted from secretary to national manager. She was smart as a whip and well educated. But she was hopelessly ill prepared for that job. She failed pretty miserably. I felt sorry for her. Her promotion happened because of the company's efforts to deal with affirmative action. Diversity for the sake of diversity.

Many women and minorities are promoted for merit. Some are promoted for appearances. There is nothing universal about it. Those who say all minorities are promoted for reasons other than merit are wrong and falling into that universality trap. But those who don't see that some are promoted just for diversity aren't looking very hard.

Yes and today we see most commercials including women and minorities. I would say that issue is even over-corrected. If people become sore in the throat over it then that is on them. The advertisers can advertise as they see fit. People who can't stand to see them should buy a DVR and skip over the commercials as they watch the programming.

People are self interested. That is human and normal. Nobody likes to see people promoted into jobs they think they should have. It is what it is. All I can say is that things have improved for women and minorities in a big way over the past 50 years. Perfect? Certainly not but significantly better.

 

You wouldn't believe me if I told you just how awful they are. Think toxic sludge.

In the Catholic religion, one is not allowed a church wedding unless the non-Catholic partner agrees to baptism/raising any future children in the religion. My mother is generations deep in Catholicism. My father never spoke of his beliefs one way or the other. We went to various (non-denominational) churches on Sunday but he never went with us.

My father passed about two weeks ago. I'm still trying to sort out the myriad of emotions I'm experiencing. I won't be part of the "let's call the priest and pretend we aren't totally screwed up as a family". However, I have children so I will honor him (in reference to being a grandfather with whom they had better relationships.

I bring this up because my mother and siblings wrote an obituary that said he was a devout Catholic and attended Mass regularly. I laughed out loud at that one. Therefore, these kinds of claims (as in the OP) are suspect. How many of those people say one thing to a surveyor but life a different lifestyle? I'm pretty safe in saying it's not 0%.

 

You know, whenever Republicans control the House of Representatives they repeatedly introduce resolutions and legislation denying evolution. In the run up to the 2016 presidential election, every one of the Republican candidates denied global warming. Polls show that the only group of significance that denies global warming, is American Evangelicals. The vast majority of Trump followers are Evangelicals, the most science denying demographic in the country.

Of course the only universities you listed are the only religious universities that do support science. Why not Liberty University, or any of the many other Christian colleges? We both know why. They tend to be highly anti-science.

 

"Freedom of religion is but on of many free will choices God has given us."

Exodus 20:3
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

 

When my great grandpa died, my father inherited a bit of money. He bought a new house and sent his children to a Catholic school. He truly believed that Catholic schools tended to provide a better education than public schools. Thing is though, the only religion I ever got in school was the hour long weekly catechism. It always seemed to me that my dad was more of a cultural Catholic then having any real belief. My mom though, she took it all seriously.

 

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The vast majority of American Christians promote "religious freedom."

The irony is... the God of the Bible does NOT allow "religious freedom."

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Exactly!!! Look at the Middle East where all the religions are mixed together. A model for everyone!! All those societies are just fine!

 

I doubt any of that is true.

Liberty University offers degree programs in
Aeronautics
Applied mathematics
Biology
Chemistry
Civil Engineering
Electrical Engineering
Computer Science
Information Technolgy
Physics
Zoology

and a host of other scientific subjects. I'm sorry to say you are wrong again.

 

Very astute observation. The data agrees with you. Students that attend religious services etc. actually have higher GPA’s contrary to Oliver’s anecdotes.

 

So do a lot of non religious people, including me.

Couldn't say. I have never read the bible.

 

Nor do many "Christians"

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Correct.