A bit of Q and A, if you will.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Keeah, Oct 31, 2015.

  1. Keeah

    Keeah New Member

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    It has come to my attention that I can no longer make quiet comments about what my denomination believes and not explain what that denomination is. It is difficult to explain the entire picture in bits and pieces, and so I am going to try to give a better picture here.

    To clarify in the beginning, I do not believe that other denominations are bad - and I know many Christians and Muslims and Jews who are fantastic people. I do, however believe they are wrong. Not in every subject, but in some.

    It is for the above reasons I want to make this thread. I actually believe that my denomination can answer more questions with logical answers than most, and I would like to do that. I also want to ask questions of members other denominations and faiths (I know athiest isn't exactly either, but I include them in this), and learn what I can of them also.

    To those who I had earlier decided to ignore, I am giving you another chance in this thread. If you argue for the sake of arguing and ask questions multiple times that I have already answered, I will return to ignoring you.

    With all that having been said, my particular denomination is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Feel free to look it up, if you're not sure about it. I would like this to actually be as decent a discussion as possible, so I would prefer no attacks or trolling on either side, and I will be commenting on those who do. Attacking other's beliefs or logic has never gotten anywhere. It's what discussion is for.

    (For clarification: attacking is saying "You are an idiot", "We all know your god isn't real" "Science is what men use to hide their sin" etc. Try saying things like: "I disagree." "I dont believe in God" "I don't understand/I dont believe science answers all questions".)
     
  2. Korben

    Korben Banned

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    I think South Park answered all my questions.
     
  3. Keeah

    Keeah New Member

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    I doubt it answered every question you could possibly have with absolute truth, but some episodes of South Park is pretty hilarious
     
  4. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Keeah
    Since you asked
    My feeling is that that the lds has some wonderful people who would likely be perfect neighbors and upstanding community members

    But i gotta say, quite a few things that are part of this faith seem widely improbable to me....
    Although, i must admit that i have similar feelings about other religious faiths...
    But it is much easier to see strangeness in communities outside your own upbringing
    So hindu, and islam also seem peculiar just from unfamiliarity


    In the end, i guess i am unsure what sort of response you are looking for
    Do you want me to elaborate on what specifically seems strange to me?

    I am not trying to criticize you or your faith... As far as i am concerned, religion is a good place for a don't ask don't tell policy

    Frankly, i do not find that any religion answers any profound or transcendent question
    Religion satisfies people who cannot live happily without such "answers"
    Imo it is indeed an opiate for the masses
    It is like saying that the meaning of life all comes to the giant all seeing clam in the either
    And once you accept that, you go on and live a life with "meaning"
     
  5. Korben

    Korben Banned

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    OK your right to be fair the ones South Park didn't answer the show Hell on Wheels did, lol.

    How many teenage wives can I have?

    I'm pro polygamy but anti tithing, will that work?

    I've never met a Mormon I didn't like but man that underwear does not look comfortable.
     
  6. stepped_in_it

    stepped_in_it Banned at Members Request

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    "I actually believe that my denomination can answer more questions with logical answers than most," >>>> So says every other "denomination" you mentioned plus many more. Every religion CREATED BY MAN believes they have the answer. Not a single one is correct....
    The many "denominations" of Christianity along with the bickering among these fractions just makes me wonder......
    HOW DID SO MANY CHRISTIANS GET IT SO WRONG????

    Maybe your "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" can actually explain why you have only (in reality) ONE bible.....ONE god and ONE belief yet you have SOOOOOO MANY bickering, babbling fractions of this ONE basic belief??
    I truly doubt you can.......
     
  7. Keeah

    Keeah New Member

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    Please, feel free to elaborate. That is what this thread is for. Keep in mind that despite the fact that there are a lot of things we do understand, there are still some things that have yet to be revealed, and so my answer might be that I don't know yet. One of the things I do like about our religion, however, is the fact that we do expect to learn that someday, whether in this life or the next.

    So yes, please do tell. :)


    First question: None. FLDS believe in polygamy and marrying teenage wives. As does a group called the Order. Both claim to have come from the LDS faith, but I have not seen evidence that this is the truth. They are, however, based in Utah. As they do not believe the Book of Mormon is true, nor believe in our prophet, I doubt they were ever really a part of our church. At most, they may have been created by former members. We do not have polygamy. We definitely do not condone teenagers marrying.

    Second question: Once again. No. You're thinking of one of the other two I mentioned before.

    Third question: From what I understand it is actually very nice. I have yet to recieve mine myself as I am unmarried and have not gone on a mission. I have, however, felt my parents and it is pretty cosy.


    First part: I did ask that you try to avoid statements like "You're all wrong" as they usually tend to anger others rather than promote a good discussion. Try instead, "I do not believe in your God." No decent person can get angry at that statement, so I would scold anyone who did get mad at that.

    As to the second part, one thing that greatly differs for the LDS church over most is that we believe in a prophet who speaks to God today. It can seem ridiculous to outside eyes, but it is one of the things that I believe proves the truth of our religion. It is because of this that as science advances and shows us many new things, God is able to reveal even more as we are more able to understand it. God has always had a prophet on the Earth, so why would that suddenly change? It makes more sense that he wouldn't, and that he would find someone with whom he can share his plan with.

    Not only that, but we also believe that you can recieve personal revelation from God just by praying in faith. He can be a bit more subtle with this than when he speaks to a prophet, but over time one begins to recognize what he is like. I feel like I know God more than others, though I still do not understand everything. I really do feel like I have conversations with him, and speaking to my fellow saits, we all 'hear' the same sort of voice.

    The reason so many got it wrong is that so many are based on Gods words for previous generations, which have also been twisted by those in power to suit their needs over the years. Some good people have tried to break from that, but without a prophet, they could only look to the corrupted Bible for inspiration. Thus, people were searching for their own truth in it's pages. Some did this so they could excuse their own behaviour, some did this because they geunuinely wanted to help. It is, however, why the LDS faith use the Book of Mormon alongside the Bible. The Book of Mormon has not been tainted by man, and has remained the same. So it can help people to decipher what may have been changed in the Bible, and so we get a better picture of the true meaning of God's word.
     
  8. AlphaOmega

    AlphaOmega Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How much does it cost to be LDS? Please break down the cost structure.
     
  9. Auggie

    Auggie New Member Past Donor

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    I have a great deal of respect for the Church of Latter Day Saints. When I was young, I knew members of the church and was very impressed by the sense of community and networking among the group. Here's the problem... I'm not welcome in that group. As a woman that doesn't want to be a mom, a woman that enjoys a higher level of education, that doesn't want or need a man to be the, "head of me", I simply don't mesh with the ideology. I would totally have been on board with the church, if the church allowed me to be me.

    I hold no ill will or bad thoughts for those that are in the church.

    I would never vote for a man that was Mormon. They seem to be willing to push their ideology onto the unwilling masses. I was the top producer in my company when it was purchased by Mormons. They fired or demoted every female at my level and replaced us with men. (Prior to that we had 50% female upper level management) I was shocked. I would have thought my extraordinary contributions to the company would matter more than my possession of a penis, but I was wrong.
     
  10. Auggie

    Auggie New Member Past Donor

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    I'm not LDS, but my observation says it doesn't cost anything. They follow the biblical principal of tithing, (contributing 10% of your income) to the church. If an LDS member loses their job, the church will find them a new job and pay their bills for them in the interim. That's much more than you can say for most Christian churches. I give 10% of my income to charity. It's just a good way to live.
     
  11. Ockham

    Ockham New Member

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    I don't find the LDS basic faith to be very contradictory to other areas of Christian faith. It's fairly standard up to 1830 and John Smith and after. Like the Pentacostal and Charismatic movement in Christianity, I tend to see LDS as a niche within Christianity who needed to modernize the faith. For example:

    The Great Apostasy opens the door for JSM, to then be a prophet in 1830's to create the Book of Mormon, claiming the biblical prophets came to him in bodily form.

    JSM then claims additional scripture was provided to him buried at his home where he translated it into the Book of Mormon.

    The Pearl of Great Price - 5 additional sections added to the bible, (Moses, Abraham) are modifications of the Old Testament, claimed to be from a papyri.


    Here are my questions:



    • That LDS believers there are other entities or gods besides the God Head. Who are these other gods and what are their purpose?
    • LDS believes salvation not in just faith, but repentance, receiving the Holy Ghost by a laying of hands on believers and baptism. What specific actions does the laying of hands do and who must do it and why?
    • LDS believes in the pre-existance of the spirit where all peoples souls existed in some form before birth and were tended by heavenly parents. Who are these heavenly parents? Are the spirits ever reused and reborn into new bodies or are all spirits unique?
    • LDS teaches the purpose of being born was a test (or to verify) the spirit now housed in corporeal form can be obedient to God. All souls whether good or bad will be resurrected upon the final judgement. Why then if everyone is to be resurrected should one strive to be obedient?
    • LDS peripherally teaches heaven is not one place but can be multiple places, based upon the level of obedience to Gods word. What are the differences between these separate levels of heaven and by what criteria is one better than another?
    • One of the more extreme views of some LDS believers is that the dinosaur bone fossils found by paleontologists came from some other place, (not from the Earth). Presumably the bones must have been put on earth for some purpose, as were the fossils of not just the bones but the soft tissue, footprints, even petrified eggs. Why should one believe such a story and what is the parable teaching of such planted evidence for human kind to find / justify?
     
  12. AlphaOmega

    AlphaOmega Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry looking for an lds response.
     
  13. Auggie

    Auggie New Member Past Donor

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    I'm interested to see the response also.:smile:
     
  14. Keeah

    Keeah New Member

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    To start, I sincerely apologize that your boss did that. That was a personal choice by him, not what our religion believes. It was completely wrong of them to do that. My mother and father are both LDS. My mother has a master's degree. My father does not. My mother makes the most amount of money and my dad stays home during the day and picked up a job with a trucking company to help pay the bills. We dont believe that men should rule over women, we believe that men are the Head of the family becaise it is their responsibility to make sure that the family is taken care of. If that means he supports his higher paid wife, he should do it. If it means he needs to stay home with the kids, he does. If it means he gets a job to supplement hers as my father did, that's what he does. The idea of Head of the House is more about his responsibilities, not rewards.

    We do believe that marriage is required for salvation, but we don't believe that you have to get married here. We believe that your other half is perfect for you, and compliments how you feel completely. If you do not find that person who fits you perfectly while on Earth, God will introduce you in heaven and you can be married there. So long as you're still righteous and faithful.

    There will always be saints, just like any other denomination, who do not really understand these things, but this is what our religion actually teaches.

    This is true, yep! A bit of things to add, LDS do not HAVE to pay tithing in order to believe or attend church, but it helps the Church to make places like a Bishops Store House, which is a place with all kinds of essentials made ready in case of natural disasters. It also helps them build meetinghouses and temples.

    When a member loses their job, or even if a non-member loses or struggles with finding a job, the Church helps by giving them a job in the church. They work at the store inside a Bishops Storehouse which pays them in food and other required needs, and gets them classes to either get a certification or degree, or to help them with resume building and job searching. They might also work at a Desert Industries, which is the LDS equivalent of Goodwill, except that the money goes to paying the employees, who are people struggling with job issues, and getting them an education they need. It includes helping those who have a job but need a better one to support their family.
     
  15. stepped_in_it

    stepped_in_it Banned at Members Request

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    Blah, blah blah blah........
    Same poop, same day! But, I'm sure this is good practice when you fool the gullible into your cult and relieve them of all their worldly goods because no alien spacecraft allows earthly goods.....right?
     
  16. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    LOL...sorry, but this right here is what I find so funny about religion in general.

    Marriage in heaven...an oxymoron if ever there be one.
     
  17. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    For starters, there is no absolute truth.
     
  18. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    Especially since Jesus specifically contradicts the notion. Mark 12:25, (also Matthew 22:30) - ""For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."
     
  19. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Plan? What is the plan? How do you know?
    The bible you said is corrupted, and yet you still use it?
     
  20. Keeah

    Keeah New Member

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    Alright, since a good deal of your questions have to do with something we call the "Plan of Salvation", I'll answer those altogether by explaining that part of our beliefs. After that, I'll answer the questions that didn't get answered by that.

    The Plan of Salvation begins with the premortal life, which is as you said, the place where our Spirits lived before we came to Earth. Our Heavenly Parents were God (who is our Heavenly Father) and a Heavenly Mother we don't often hear about. We believe this is because God protects her from the ire of men, as it would hurt her emotionally to be mocked as he is. As far as I know, spirits are not reborn, but there is a lot we do not understand about how spirits work and so I may be wrong on that part. I do know that they are as unique as all humans are.

    In the Premortal Existence, God came to us with the Plan of Salvation: a plan that would allow us to get bodies. We believe that there was a Council about it in Heaven, and that Lucifer (who we believe was like us, a spirit child) stood and offered a different plan from Gods. He suggested that we make him our Savior, and he would live forever on the Earth and would make sure that everyone was righteous and made it back to God. Jesus stood against him, and pointed out that Satan's Plan would not allow anyone to choose our own way, and so we would lose our free will. There was a war in heaven, Lucifer's side against Jesus' side, but Jesus' won out and the third of the spirits in heaven, the third that followed Lucifer, were cast out. Those who remained, the final two thirds of the original number, were the ones who came to Earth and received bodies.

    The purpose of Earth, as you said, was to test if a spirit could learn to control their own carnal bodies and return to God. I don't think I have to explain much of how the world works since most understand that part. No matter what, once you have received a body, you will have a body in the end, however, there is more that can be done the more righteous you are. I'll explain more of that when we get to the end of this.

    After a person dies, they go to what is called the Spirit World. We know that it is some where near us here, but we cannot see it. Whether the spirits walk among us invisible, or what, we don't know. They stay here until Jesus comes to the Earth again, and the full resurrection occurs. This will happen at the end of the world. This is also when souls will be judged for their works on Earth, and this is where the three different heavens come into play. They are compared to different "light" forms (as the people of the old world would think of them), the Sun the Moon and the Stars. The first is the Telestial Heaven, and this is where the worst sorts of people go. These are the ones who have to go to hell first because of their wickedness. These are people like murderers, rapists, pedophiles, and so forth. They go through hell for a hundred years or so, then they go to the Telestial Heaven. The second heaven is for people who were good in life, but never received the gospel. Contrary to other denominations, we believe that they do not go through hell. They go straight to the Terrestrial Heaven which is compared to the moon. These people eventually become angels, if they so choose. The final heaven is called the Celestial Heaven, and it is where the people who believed, and did the ordinances necessary to get here, go. It is compared to the Sun. This is also where God lives, and so it is where the majority of us really want to go.

    The Celestial Heaven is where all the ordinances come in. In order to progress, we believe that you must be baptized, and take the name of Jesus upon you, meaning that you accept Jesus' suffering for your sins. Part of baptism for us is the Laying on of Hands, which you mentioned. This process is done for the newly baptized, and it gives them God's Holy Ghost to be with them always, and to help them to recognize which path in their life is bad and which is good. The process is that members of the LDS Priesthood will lay their hands on the recipients head and give them this Holy Ghost to help them in life. Some of the words they say are ritual, and some are different depending on the person. God tells the one who prays what they should say to the one receiving the Holy Ghost. Usually, it is the privilege of the person's father to give this to them. If their father is unworthy, or not a member of the church, whoever it is can choose who they want to give it to them. In my cousin's case, since my uncle is not a believer, he asked his older brother to do it. They can also ask a worthy member of their ward, or in some cases their husbands. Depends entirely on the person.

    I believe I've covered everything I can on that point, so I'll move to the questions I didn't answer.

    Your first question: We believe that there are other Gods out there, but who they are we have no idea. We believe they are brothers and sisters and cousins of God, but they are unimportant to us or our salvation. We do not worship them, and they do nothing for us. We do believe that they have their own universes with their own children that they take care of.

    Your Sixth question: The idea that dinosaurs came from somewhere else is not fact, just an idea people came up with and shared. God has not told us about the dinosaurs, so we speculate what might have happened. There is also the speculation that the dinosaurs were on the Earth when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, or the speculation that they walked the Earth in Noah's time and the Flood is what wiped them out. Fact is, these are only ideas. We have not been told where they came from.


    Now I believe I have answered everything. If I missed something, feel free to point it out.
     
  21. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully, if you really think about it, you can see how the two things that I bolded don't square up. Saying that you believe in a thing doesn't "prove" that thing. But since you bring it up, who is this "prophet" that you believe in, who speaks to God today? What would you say are his/her most compelling prophecies, in terms of clarity and truth (that is, s/he made clear predictions, and they came true)? IOW, what is the "proof" that this person is a prophet?
     
  22. Keeah

    Keeah New Member

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    Not on Earth, unfortunately, that is true.

    Your right, I was being vague. Let me elaborate.

    You cannot be married in heaven in the same way as Earth. A priest doesn't just marry you and you skip off on your happy way. It has to be done on Earth. This is what LDS temples are for. As a member of the church, a married couple can enter the temple and do a marriage ceremony for you. This can only be done for people who have died, and they still have to accept it before it will apply to them. So if you cannot find your soul mate on Earth, and God shows them to you in heaven, he will give your names to someone on Earth, who can then make sure that that work is done for you.

    Firstly, see the post I just did.

    Secondly, we use the Bible because it has stories we still need to learn, but we use it with a grain of salt. That is why we also have the Book of Mormon, so that we can sort of cross-reference the two to decipher the truth in the Bible.

    The computer I use is mine. My parents own a house and that is theirs. Pick an item that a member of the church has and they probably own it, unless they're borrowing it from someone else who owns it. The church does not make us give up our worldly possessions. We are welcome to donate them to benefit others, but if a member of the church gives up their possessions, it is completely up to them if it is something they believe will help.

    If I might ask something of you, can you give me a well-tested definition of cult from a dictionary or other source that fits my faith? If you can, this conversation can continue.
     
  23. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    Wow. Not only is that incredibly "out there" in terms of believability, but it still contradicts what Jesus said. Firstly, you assume that people who have died are capable of "accepting" the marriage. That is wacky enough on its face. But Jesus said "they neither marry nor are given in marriage", and you are clearly "giving them in marriage."
     
  24. Keeah

    Keeah New Member

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    My belief is my belief, and I am not trying to prove anything to those who do not want to try to understand it. And in actuality, I didn't mean that it proves it to those who don't believe in God. I meant that it is part of the proof that mine is the one true religion.

    Prophecies are not all that our prophets do. For the most part, the idea of the Prophet is that he is the current mouth piece for God. God uses him to speak to his people about the current age and era. That being said, there are a few things that former prophets have said before that have since proven to be important in the future.

    One of our prophet's, Gordon B. Hinckley, prophesied that we would need to get our finances in order and start saving food storage for hard times. A few years later we hit the depression in the 2000s. Before that he also prophesied that marriage and family was going to be argued in the next few decades, and now we have things like Gay marriage and the fact that people don't want to get married or to have children as much as they did back then. These are a few I can think of off the top of my head.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I have nothing to say to that except that I know this is the truth. Why would God make marriage an important part of moving forward in life, then not let everyone have that chance? Doesn't make sense.

    Edit: In hindsight, I adjusted a few of my words, and added this: I think Jesus is talking about after the ressurection and the judgement part of the plan. It is true that there will be no marriage once the Judgement begins, but while people are still in the Spirit World, and before the world ends, that is a different story.
     
  25. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    Hey, you're the one who said that it "proves the truth" of your religion.

    Of course future predictions are not all that a prophet does, but they are a key way to IDENTIFY a person as a prophet, as opposed to just some guy who is making things up.

    Getting finances in order and saving for hard times is just common sense. Hardly a prophecy from God. Hell, I could have told you that, and I'm certainly no prophet. Likewise, the gay marriage thing and the fact that marriage as a whole has been on the decline for generations is something that a blind man could see. If that's the best you got, then you're fooling yourself.

    You assert that marriage is an important part of "moving forward in life", then draw conclusions based off of that assumption, even claiming you "know" it just because you believe it. And again, you contradict the bible. 1 Cor 7:8 - "Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do." But I guess you know better.
     

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