A Case for Respectful Disagreement With Male-Bashers

Discussion in 'Women's Rights' started by CCitizen, Nov 2, 2019.

  1. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    6,859
    Likes Received:
    1,969
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You have multiple times and I could dig up a few examples to make a fool out of you, but I am not in the mood to browse my history right now.

    Since you added it is upsetting, you clearly lack understanding for my position which is quite spectacular considering what you work with.
     
  2. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    14,640
    Likes Received:
    7,781
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    dig up where I called you evil. I never thought you were evil and I don’t think you are evil. Saying I said that and then saying you don’t want to browse your history entitles you to say anything. And please don’t cloak yourself in self righteousness..you’ve said quite a few things about me
     
  3. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    5,083
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Male as a whole are most of homeless people (because the state discriminate against them and when it's come to help them), have to pay life time alimonies to their former wives (that's slavery), have less access to health system, can be send to the slaughter house during wars, don't have equal access to their children, have to pay for children that sometimes aren't even biologically them, it have been shown that female teacher openly discriminate their male students and so on, can be send to the draft, male that ask help when victim of domestic abuse are either mocked or worse locked up, are excepted to protect women (they would risk their life for them ?).
     
    william kurps and FatBack like this.
  4. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    14,640
    Likes Received:
    7,781
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    There are plenty of men’s shelter but some would men rather be on the street.womentake advantage of this option. It’s not discrimination
    Are you aware that men who are stay at home dad’s get alimony if their wives divorce them.It is these wives who get alimony that were the slaves who were working raising children and caring for the home for no pay. They were a partnership. You are wrong now about access to children. The courts are very fair to the dads . Oh by the way you are wrong about teachers and male students. I was involved in a study on just that and the result is that teachers pay more attention to boys students. Who are you blaming for mocking men of domestic violence? its other men who do that! I agree with you about war and I think there should be a national service but keep in mind it was men who kept women out of the military. All your imagined ills are mostly created by men!
     
  5. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    5,083
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, because they love to be homeless, probably a secret passion. You have other silly stories to tell ? The cases where homeless people refuse to go in shelters is because they're worse than the street, which says a lot. It's mostly victim blaming, despicable.

    So what ?

    For no pay ? They got access to the money of their husbands. In every culture if A work for B when B doesn't work, it's A that is considered as a slave. Furthermore, many women got alimonies without having children.

    Funny joke.

    Absolutly wrong : https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...cused-of-giving-boys-lower-marks-6943937.html

    Pretended it was simply created by men is just revisionism. Women didn't had any problem to send men to war as have shown the episode of the "white feather" in WW1 england. Women enjoyed to send young boys getting obliterated during WW1. That doesn't remove the responsibility of the generals and other men involved in that, but depicting women as pacifist in the past is false, they enjoyed war as much if not more.https://www.thecut.com/2016/01/european-queens-waged-more-wars-than-kings.html

    Considering men victim of domestic violence, I already discussed with people member of organizations to defend men victim of domestic violence, feminist organizations work hard to make them silence. Men working on that have only ennemies, the male and female policemen, the feminist organizations, they all do their best to discriminate against men victim of domestic violence. The police as a whole is against male, either it's male or female police officer.

    I'm happy to learn that male homelessness, suicide, paternity fraud is "imagined".

    For me the father of all fight remain fight against male suicide. But I guess that the different governments are quite happy with the situation, democrats or republican.
     
  6. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    14,640
    Likes Received:
    7,781
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    I was not saying that homeless men like being on the street. I guess it went over your head. You were saying that there are no places for them and I was saying that there are men shelters but many are reluctant to go there. Now you go fight for men’s shelters the woman did and you’ll get results rather than complaining
    I love the “so what”? You complain that men have to pay alimony and the reason it is mostly men because it is women who work for nothing in the home. Men who are homemakers get alimony from their wives if they’re working. For man and a woman agree for the woman to be the homemaker she is entitled to money m they are a partnership. So now go out and fight for women to pay more alimony and you’ll get results rather than complaining
    I was involved in a study in New York City where I was a teacher and the findings were that girls were held to different standards while boys could call out and the teachers would call them. Girls were expected to be “lladies” You can find studies that will show whatever you want to find.I do workshops in prejudice awareness and I work with teachers and high school kids. I asked them how they react when a boy curses and how they react when a girl curses and all the teachers admit that they find the girl more upsetting. But I have to admit thank goodness things are changing. Years ago girls always did better in elementary school then they started failing in high school and that was because they didn’t have the opportunities than that they do now
    What would make you say that women “enjoyed sending boys to be obliterated in war”? This is when you lose your credibility.
    You Seem like a very angry man and I hope you’re taking action. It worked for women.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  7. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    5,083
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Trophy Points:
    113
    They don't work for "nothing", they get access to the finances of their husband. That's quite the opposite they get access to a lot of ressources without having to work. There is a lot of women happy to live the domestic life, to not have to go in an office doing a horrible job and that their spouse win money for them. I don't blame them even if their husband seems dumb.
    If a man or a woman end to be alone, it's their own responsibility to finance their own life, not their former spouse to finance their way of living.

    Doesn't change it have been shown that female teacher discriminate against boys. You can find any excuse, it doesn't change that this fact has been shown.

    White feathers episode. We could speak also of ISIS brides that glorifies martyrdom of their children and have raise a lot of little boys to become a martyr of the caliphate. In islamic radicalization, the role of women are always underestimated, yet if a lot of little boys where risen in an ideology that glorify war and martyrdom, it's because their parents did so and their mothers. I didn't found it back, but it has been shown that islamic terrorists come more often. The feminist agenda try to re write History and make men only responsible for war, but how much women glorified war in the mind of their little boys is widely underestimated, how much people, especially women humilitated men who refused to go to war also.

    Spare me that. That's just emotionnal manipulation and scare tactics.
    Every years, 32 000 men commit suicide, every ten years, it's a city like Saint Louis, Cincinnati or Santa Anna that disappear because of that. And it doesn't count the suicide which fall under "disappeared" or "accident". It neither consider people who choose the slow way of drugs.

    How could we change that number ? First, by the way there is a work to do on men themselves, change their perception of themselves, destroy some wrong ideas such as a relationship could make you happy. By the way there is a need of much more male group therapy.
    But in the end, you can't cut in pieces male condition, you can't fight suicide while still accepting nowodays conditions of divorce, marriage, neither by acceptating that so much male kids being discriminated and left on the sideway of school.

    By the way, some associations already tried to work on the matter of male suicide, and who opposed them ? Feminist associations.
     
  8. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    14,640
    Likes Received:
    7,781
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    I know where you are coming from the minute you talk about women “don’t work” if you had to pay a person to cook and to clean and to watch children etc it would cost about 100k a year. If it is such a easy job why don’t more men opt to be a stay at home dad’s?
    I never heard women humiliate men who didn’t go to war. That’s a guy thing. Women as a gender are usually pacifist. You are right about teaching boys about the glories of war when they are little. They are given violent dolls In my prejudice workshops I encourage them to teach boys about the glories of being a father instead. Why do we ostracize a boy who wants to play witha doll? Do you really believe it is mothers who encourage boys to be machos? Do you think daddy would be fine with his son putting on nail polish? You’ really seem to blame women for everything when it is so silly because it is men who set the standards for their boys
    You are Making up false facts like feminist organizations oppose dealing with male suicide. Shame on you for insulting my intelligence, why would they?it sunlike you’re saying we want men to commit suicide...do something about it rather than blame women for everything
    It’s interesting that you say that teachers favor girls. Then how come boys have succeeded in high schools more than girls for generations? The opposite is true but not as much today
    I agree we need more male group therapy.i hope you’re in one...if not organize them
     
  9. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    5,083
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You're right on that point I'm wrong, the vast majority of stay at home women work. Doesn't mean it's as stressfull than working in an office.

    Your ignorance isn't truth.

    Yes, I got your mindset, all women are angels and men are basically the devil. But no. I already sourced that wrong.

    There is studies that suggest that men tend to be more object oriented and women people oriented, that's a trend BTW.

    They do https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-mothers-have-boys-dont-cry-bias-new-study-suggests/

    Do you think daddy would be fine with his son putting on nail polish? You’ really seem to blame women for everything when it is so silly because it is men who set the standards for their boys[/quote]

    No that's a major issue on many men group, their hatred of women. I got it why many men hate women after all the psychological violence they got from women. I approve the life style of some men that avoid women but it's not my personnal choice.

    They do. Don't have any article about that, but they do.

    I never called or thought you dumb, however, you're manipulative and you prove it again.

    I don't know, that's a good question I would understand.

    I don't blame women on that issues, I blame feminist organization that oppose actions taken against male suicide. The only actions they take is calling male "toxic" and shaming them because they don't open enough, while insulting them when they do open up.

    I didn't said that teachers favor girls, I brought an article that show that female teacher discriminate against boys. Male teachers don't discriminate against boys, and it have not been shown they discriminate against girls.

    I'm a suicide survivor, so yes I'm taking up actions against male suicide.
     
  10. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    14,640
    Likes Received:
    7,781
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    No that's a major issue on many men group, their hatred of women. I got it why many men hate women after all the psychological violence they got from women. I approve the life style of some men that avoid women but it's not my personnal choice.



    They do. Don't have any article about that, but they do.



    I never called or thought you dumb, however, you're manipulative and you prove it again.



    I don't know, that's a good question I would understand.



    I don't blame women on that issues, I blame feminist organization that oppose actions taken against male suicide. The only actions they take is calling male "toxic" and shaming them because they don't open enough, while insulting them when they do open up.



    I didn't said that teachers favor girls, I brought an article that show that female teacher discriminate against boys. Male teachers don't discriminate against boys, and it have not been shown they discriminate against girls.



    I'm a suicide survivor, so yes I'm taking up actions against male suicide.[/QUOTE]


    So you think cooking, cleaning , taking care of children isn’t as stressful as an office job? It sure is...and she doesn’t get a salary
    tell me how these women humiliate men who go to war...since obviously you know some pretty vicious women. It’s usually women who fight against war so men don’t have to go. I am curious about this humiliation that you are accusing feminist organizations of.
    You keep making these silly statements like women’s organizations that oppose taking action against male suicide. Tell me these feminist organizations. Sounds like something you saw on the Internet in some male victim group
    I’m Not going to debate about teachers favoring girls because I have been involved in studies on this topic. Something I am very well aware of is we do in fact treat boys and girls differently but not it’s not favoritism
    I am very sorry that you tried suicide and I sympathize with you with all my heart. But to think that women don’t care is so unfair. Suicide is becoming way too common in this country and it is men AND women who are fighting it and trying to get legislation passed. I hope your life has taken a more positive turn and I am glad you are helping others in this very serious issue.
     
  11. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    5,083
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, it depend of the number of children, how rich you are (rich women get many tools that make their work 10 harder), of the troubles the children get, and by the way of the work made. Families matter can be a huge source of stress for both father and mother. However, I says that some women are happy that their husband face the difficulties their husband face. Yes, some stay at home have a much easier life than their husband, the opposite is true. There is a lot of different situations, would be hard to give a general rule.

    I already gave you two example, during WW1, there is the white feather episode where many young women were giving white feather to men who didn't enlistened to the army. At that time it was a symbol of being coward. That highly participated to the mass participation of young british men to war.
    In much more recent time, there is plenty examples of radical muslim women raising their boys with the idea that martyr is the biggest honnor they would do to their husband. Radicalized women, either in islam or other instances (nazism) are often underestimated in the role they play in radicalization.
    Even if it's not a war movie, I remember that young girls widely considered that "Titanic" was a romantic movie. There is much more cases where women glorify the sacrifice of men than the opposite. I know that the director is a men, but there was much more fans of this movie among women than men.
    I remember reading things about ancient times where women were pushing men to go in war when some men were not really motivated. I'm no historian, but "the role of women in warlike culture" would be an interesting thematic research.

    No, real life experience.

    Obviously it's not favoritism, the reality didn't happened as it doesn't please you.

    I don't blame all women. I wouldn't be alive if two women weren't there. I don't appreciate neither the behavour of white knights that consider women as demigods neither the women hater. In the end they're the two faces of the same coin. One beg for female attention and recognition and the other hate them, but in the end both get all their thoughts directed toward women. One think that he would become happy when women would consider him and do everything for that, the other one think that if he is so unhappy because of those damn women. Both are fools.

    However, consider men victim of domestic abuse (mostly psychological) or abused during a divorce, it's natural for them to be angry.

    I don't get it, every time you speak of male psychic suffering, it makes some women and male feminists very angry and I don't get it, I don't even speak of women or blame women for that. I don't get it why, but it appear that some people tend to consdier that women must have a monopoly of pain.

    I noticed a double standart : if something wrong happen to female => the society is wrong, if something wrong happen to male => they're wrong.
    For instance, if women are not present in some important scientific fields => The society discourage them to become scientists.
    If men don't ask often the custody of their children or don't speak of their feelings, no it's not because they're discouraged to do that or not because they're not listened enough when they speak of that, no it's because they have "toxic mascunility". I think there is a wide disdain of male life globally in western societies, disdain that originate before feminism but that tend to be amplified those last years.

    It could originate in a biological way. It's harsh to prove it, but there could be an innate biological bias that encourage human to favor the well being of women. Even in traditionnal societies, where women could be considered as a minor between children and men, and protection of female is widely encouraged in traditionnal societies.
     
  12. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Messages:
    793
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Ahh, the usual group. Get your hankies out. The group, white males, have the most advantages of any sex or ethnicity is crying again.

    Sure there are sexist remarks and social inequities but those are mild compared to what women and other ethnicities have endured. What probably needs to be examined is why you all are so sensitive. There is no conspiracy against men.
     
  13. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    5,083
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Never pretended that. Considering, the point that "males have most advantages", I already pointed out why it's wrong, and I'm not interested in repeating the debate.

    Considering the tendancy of democrats by pointing out people by their colour of skin and spreading division about that, you have shown more than a long history of loving that. Should we surprized you want to repeat it ? You may pretend you're different, but you are not.

    Beyond that, white male are the one that commit suicide most. Maybe it's great according to your political agenda, but I tend to believe that anyone commiting suicide isn't not acceptable, should he be white, black, female, gay or heterosexual.
     
  14. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Messages:
    793
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Not to be too picky but "males have most advantages" reads differently than "males have the most advantages of any sex or ethnicity".
    We all want a level playing field do we not? To do that we cannot ignore the inequities. You see it as spreading division I see it as righting wrong. Tell me another way to get there.
    The are many theories about why white male suicide is up, economic, changing social status, etc. but one thing stands out; increased handgun ownership.
     
  15. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    5,083
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You're not different from male supremacists or misogynist. Every hater find a way to justificate his hatred. White supremacist justificate their hatred of black people because of the crime rate of black people, nazis justificated their hatred of jews because of their roles in financial institutions, you justificate your hatred is no different. The way and means may vary sligthy but in the end in the core it's the same principles. I love how black, white supremacists hate each other, but yet are the same. They ironically prove the opposite of what they claim, that mankind is fundamentally united.

    Democrats are as miserable as republican. You failed to improve the situation of colored people. Because you failed, now you try to belittle the other. It's not the first time the left wing do that, there is enough slaughters in communist countries to justify of that. It's not the first time you would send a country into chaos.

    What way to correct inequities ? I don't believe that an all powerfull government could correct everything, however, it's very clear that the very fundation of a nation is education. Not only schools (especially early years) should get much more money, but the way we consider education should be re considered and much more thought spend in education theory. The youth is the most important pillar of a nation, every single kid, black, white, latinos and asian is the future of the country. The education of children is a battle more important than the battle of Normandy.
    More important and on that point the government is powerless, "ordinary citizens" should be aware that they are the one which hold the real power. Furthermore, I'm sure that the day most american would realize they're a single people, things would improve drastically. "E pluribus Unum", it's there from the start in the end.
    For that, people should start to reject people who show people because of their colour of skin, but also democrats and republican. Partis live from opposition and spread constantly division. They don't serve the country but themselves. That's why a political reform should be started to lower the importance of partis, professionnal politician and lobbies and increase the importance of ordinary people.
    It's maybe because I'm french that I think that a new revolution should start, but a bloodless one this time.
     
    CCitizen likes this.
  16. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Messages:
    4,864
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The most horrible aspect is that 60% to 90% of people in Modern Western World share prejudice against men. A small forum is one of the few corners of Modern Western World, where Egalitarianism is still acceptable. This is one of few corners of Modern Western Civilization where Tolerance is still tolerated

    In 1919, 60% to 90% of people in Modern Western World held prejudices against all Minorities. My parents also suffered anti-Semitism in USSR.

    In Modern Western Civilization, prejudice against men is normal. My goal is to awaken mostly men to the state of Modern Western Civilization.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
  17. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Messages:
    793
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Hate is a strong word to toss around. I may hate the idea of white supremacy or misogyny but the individual believer I only feel pity for.They must have psychological issues that are relieved by making others feel bad for them to feel good.
    The government has and could go a long way to correct inequities. Perhaps you have heard of civil rights legislation, women's voting rights, child labor laws, hate crime laws, anti-discrimination laws and the list goes on; all opposed by the right and you wonder why improvement in the situation of "colored people" is taking so long.
    That 60 to 90% sounds like a made up number since 50% are men. Your views are the ones not normal.
     
  18. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    6,859
    Likes Received:
    1,969
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    When? Where? What? Such as? Any examples? Sources? What war was stopped by women?

    You have to be incredibly naive to think that suicide is battled with legislation - Like, what, make it illegal to kill yourself? :laughing:
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  19. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    6,859
    Likes Received:
    1,969
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Eh... What? :laughing:
     
  20. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    5,083
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Scorn, spite, call that the way you want that feeling that lead you to belittle the life for them.

    Yes. It's true for the far left aswell.

    Never pretended that the right wing was humanist. Basic false dualism. Considering woman right vote, the left was the one opposed to that in my country, as women were at that time more christian.
    But the left is not more humanist. Even without speaking of communism, we could speak of the role of the left in colonization, or the fact the very progressive Calfornia was before WW2 the champion of eugenism. We could also speak of the socialist origins of fascism. The left managed to write the history making them the good guys, it's a crook.
    It's not the first time that the left is scapegoating their political opponents for their failure. There is a lot of examples of that.
     
  21. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Messages:
    793
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    43
    And now your list of what the right has done in the name of social progress.....
     
  22. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    5,083
    Likes Received:
    2,122
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Already answered to that
    Black/white, right/left, evil/good, aren't you tired to think in binary ? At that level it's not even politics, it's glorified tribal instinct "my tribe is better than your tribe". I'm not right winged, neither I'm at the left. I don't care of those pathetic tribal classifications and reject them as mind-dumbing.
     
  23. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Messages:
    4,864
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Indeed, The Right has done many bad things. They are for guns, which have been used in deaths of 572,000 people in USA 1999-2016. They oppose helping people in need.

    But many Leftist Sources demonize all men. For instance, NYT presents all men as innately monstrous. Many Leftists support Presumption of Guilt of men accused of Sexual Misconduct. President Trump supports Presumption of Innocence. The Left is much worse then The Right.
     
  24. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2018
    Messages:
    793
    Likes Received:
    154
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I am sorry I missed your list of right-wing contributions to social progress.

    Oh, but now you don't want to play that right/left partisan game anymore. Its getting so tiresome after trying to trash the left.

    You can call differences in philosophy "tribal" and try to minimize them as pathetic but you are in denial of their importance. The left's chief concern is fairness. Are there inequities that need to be righted. The right's chief concerns are stability, safety and the importance of authority. You can cherry pick the mistakes on both sides all day but what moves society forward is agitation from the left and what puts the brakes on it, occasionally for the better, is the right.

    You must have a unique definition of humanism because I believe the majority on the left would agree with humanist philosophy.
    I've been reading the NYTimes for years how could I have missed that?
    Of course president grab them by the ***** is a great supporter of the presumption of innocence.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
  25. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Messages:
    4,864
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Presumption of Guilt destroys careers and lives of very many men -- perhaps hundreds of thousands. Presumption of Innocence is one of the most important values for anyone who is concerned with Human Rights.

    "False accusations diminish the severity of real assault. All should condemn false accusations and any actual assault in the strongest possible terms." Here.

    Definitely President Trump has faults, but the fact that he defends Human Rights in the age when it is unfashionable is a virtue.
     

Share This Page