"A good God wouldn't have a Hell"

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by kazenatsu, Oct 15, 2020.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's not a contradiction.

    Now your argument seems to be that God has to bring everyone into the same state of being.

    Part of the reason is that better people make it easier for heaven to be a better place. And bad people people make it easier for hell to be a worse place.
    I think at least some of the cause of heaven and hell being so different has to do with the people themselves.

    Heaven isn't entirely good all because god has taken away people's free will. That's something you need to consider.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  2. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Banned

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    No my argument is why didnt god bring everyone into the same state of being, would you not of done so if you were god?

    What has easier got to do with anything, if I am god I have no concept of easy and hard, im god I can do what I like.

    Are you saying Heaven is not entirely good?
     
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  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "At the same time you admit that a god could of created a world with "shaped personalities" and "screening" where pain suffering and sin did not exist and still maintained free will."

    You're making the fallacy that because God could do this for some people, it would be easy to do if for everyone.

    Also, God doesn't have to do it for everyone to still be a good God.
     
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No I wouldn't. Well, not right now at least. I am feeling the same way about that as I do about this thread. There's only so far I'm willing to go, and then I just want to give up.

    If Jesus has to suffer for sins, don't you think he might be perhaps just be a little selective about who he is willing to save?

    The answer is maybe it is not so easy, even for God.
    Or maybe God does not want to do it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  5. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Banned

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    No I am not, because Christianity claims that god in Omnipotent so there is no reason he could not do it for everyone, after all he created each and everyone of us, why make some bad?
    No god does not have to do it, but then he would not be omnibenevolent would he?
    I am not surprised, your bible and religion is full of contradictions and it is best believed on faith and not reason and logic, fair play to you for trying though and keeping the conversation respectful.

    That really is a whole different subject and whilst I would happily debate vicarious redemption with you it would be of topic.
    If it is not easy for god then is he Omnipotent?
    If he does not want to do it then is he omnibenevolent?
     
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  6. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    which of course means he will brainwash them into obedient little worshipers

    can't let them remember all those friends and family he sent to hell, cause that would make them sad in heaven
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  7. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Where have you defined the god you speak about?

    You could make yourself have to explain less, if your OP sets the definition if the OP.
    Else no one can know where to find your definition.

    Make better OPs and you won't be frustrated.
     
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  8. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.
    Why create imperfect creatures if the goal is to only accept those creatures you deem perfect enough to spend eternity in your world?
    Why create creatures you know you will torture for eternity. Unless it's something that makes one smile.
     
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  9. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that the goal?
    To get to heaven where everything and everyone is perfect?
     
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  10. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    There's a hell if one believe's there's one. And there's no hell if one doesn't believe there's one.
    No one will prove a hell exists or doesn't exist.

    The real founders of the god in this OP, don't believe in a hell of punishment.

    I tend to go with the real founders on what the belief is about.
     
  11. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    There's not suppose to be. Robots. All perfect souls and perfect everything.

    But, Lucifer and other angels, tried to overthrow god. Or so the story goes. So, I guess it's not all perfect.
     
  12. Ronald Hillman

    Ronald Hillman Banned

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    As I understood Christians believe there is free will in heaven but somehow it is restricted.

    In heaven, our free will is limited against choosing what is wrong. Our free will in heaven will supernaturally always choose what is true, noble, right, pure, lovely, and admirable
    https://www.compellingtruth.org/free-will-in-heaven.html

    Of course that just creates the contradiction with the idea there is evil because of free will, its a classic christian problem of contradictory answers.
     
  13. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    My christian upbringing taught me perfection in heaven.
    No suffering. No pain. No sin.

    QUESTION: Can you sin in heaven? My first thought is that one cannot. But then I wonder if God takes away our free will when we get to heaven? I can't imagine why we would want to sin in heaven — we'll be perfect and the place we are will be perfect. But then I think of Adam and Eve before the fall — they were perfect, made in God's image, and they lived in a perfect place. Yet they had free will and sinned.

    ANSWER: Your first thought, from your knowledge of the Bible, is correct beyond all doubt. There is no sin in heaven, because it is the place where the sinless God dwells.

    Those who have been cleansed in the blood of the Lamb have been cleansed forever. There is no more death in heaven, the result of sin. We die once and then the judgment. Our death ends sin, the Scripture says.

    Just as the good angels are fixed in their sinless state now, so also we shall be. We will serve God forever willingly, but it will be impossible for us to will to sin as did our first parents.

    In heaven it will not be like in the beginning of our human history. Old things have passed away, the new has come (Rev. 21:4). There will be only life, eternal life, and where there is eternal life there is eternal sinlessness.

    Rest your soul on that and praise God for His great goodness in giving us a sinless Savior.
    https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/faqs/doctrine#sin
     
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  14. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So, your God isn't perfect, then. What's the point of worshiping an imperfect being? Out of fear of punishment?
     
  15. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Nope, it is human nature to want justice or fairness. To get that, even after death, the human imagination has invented heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo, karma, reincarnation, spiritual oneness/troubled wandering soul and on and on.

    It is a motivating force for good but it can cause a lot of psychic distress especially in children and teens when religious rules go against human nature. Also seeking "justice" can go off the rails in some sects. A baby raper can go to heaven when he repents and a good person not "saved" will go to hell?
     
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  16. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What if it's in God's nature too?

    It says we are "created in the image of God".
     
  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is what the Christian concept of the cross is for. In Christianity, it is considered to be the biggest miracle, that God has devised a way for sins to be forgiven, and still remain just.


    The person who did very horrific things is still not going to be able to go to heaven unless they change their ways, so that they will not be prone to do that again. (repentance, genuine change of heart)
    But that's only part of it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because God has perfect justice, and still at the same time has huge amounts of mercy.

    Think about this: God doesn't have to be perfect, he just has to be more perfect than any human being.
    And everything about him would still pretty much still hold true.

    And if you think that doesn't mean God is perfect, what would your idea of perfection be?

    If you commit a bad thing, can you really lay all the blame on God for that bad thing you did?
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  19. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It will likely be close to perfection, but it might not actually be absolute perfection.

    That's a question that Christians are still not fully settled on.
    It is not known whether you can sin in heaven.

    However, there are some reasons to believe it may be possible.

    I do think it will be much less likely for people to sin in heaven, at least.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  20. Matt84

    Matt84 Well-Known Member

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    This thread is funny.
     
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  21. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am here to discuss any contradictions relating to the topic of this thread. But I am not really going to get into any separate big theological/philosophical issues that would be better to discuss in a separate thread.

    I mean the type of issues that really stand on their own, and don't need to have anything to do with the topic in this thread to still be very relevant.
     
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  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why so?

    All I'm trying to do is use logic, to dismantle one single atheist objection.

    It's all of you who keep bringing up other topics.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  23. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There's a part in the Bible that says a third of the angels rebelled and fell out of heaven. So I think you may be wrong here.
     
  24. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, that's not too hard to understand. Free will on earth is also restricted, in some ways.
    I mean, for example, you can't literally do anything you want to, there are physical constraints.
    You can't literally think of anything you want to do, there are mental constraints, and things you will not have thought of, perhaps even God is preventing you from thinking about some of them.

    I don't want to get too far off-topic. I'm not sure how this is all relevant to the issue in this thread.

    You all seem to be trying to take the discussion down these rabbit holes, and I feel like the discussion is getting constantly derailed.
     
  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is off-topic.

    Please try to stay on-topic, dairyair. Maybe you don't know how to stay on topic, or you are not capable of comprehending what that means.


    This thread isn't about proving Hell is consistent with the Bible, it's about proving Hell is philosophically consistent with the concept of a good God.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020

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