"A good God wouldn't have a Hell"

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by kazenatsu, Oct 15, 2020.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    By its very definition, the very concept of "screening" implies that not everyone will be able to get through.

    That's part of what makes heaven a good place.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  2. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    What the heck is 'more perfect'? And how would anyone know what more perfect anyone is?
     
  3. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    No, it's not. If there is no hell, there is no basis of the OP.
     
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You seem to be complaining that God is not shaping every single person's character into a saint.
    Well, maybe that is not an easy thing to do. Maybe some persons will not let God do that, or involve themselves in the process.
     
  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You've just made a total equivocation fallacy.

    If you don't believe me, in your next post, write out all the logic in lines and see how it does not follow.

    I'm willing to wait patiently for you to do that, and we can all take a look at it together.

    For a normal person, I'd be willing to explain step by step, but sorry, I'm not willing to do that with you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Can you explain what that has to do with the topic in the opening post?
     
  7. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That would mean you're not talking about an all-powerful God. I'd suggest that when people make the statement you talking about in the OP, they're referring to the concept of an all-powerful God and that is a key element of the logic behind it.
     
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  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe God is not truly all-powerful in every single way. Or maybe God is not choosing to turn everyone's personalities into saints.
    If he chooses that, and they end up going to Hell, that is not necessarily his fault.
    Those people chose not to enter into and begin undergoing the process.
     
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Imagine that God tries to get you to be a better person (the type of person who could go to heaven) but you keep refusing.

    If you choose not to, and he does not use his power to force you, is it his fault?
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  10. DEFinning

    DEFinning Active Member Donor

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    A fair, but at the same time, misleading point: though I would accept, for the point of argument, that God values justice & fairness, as do most (but not nearly all) humans, just look at the wide array, or more accurately, expanse, of different people's ideas of what IS fair & just. Likewise, it is a specious argument to assume that whatever I consider fair, or whatever my church considers just, or my society, or even whatever generalities one might assign to mankind, on the whole, THEREFORE, God's idea of fair & just would necessarily bear any resemblance at all, to my/our own.

    If God, "works in mysterious ways," &, "God only knows why bad things happen to good people," & we, "cannot know the day or the hour (when God will, "call us," that is, of our deaths)," how could any rational & religious person-- which is not a contradiction-- believe we know what awaits us on the other side?
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  11. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That sounds more like moral relativism.

    If that was really the case, then any argument that a "good" God couldn't create a Hell would be a moot point, wouldn't it?
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  12. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Is is pretty sick IMHO to believe babies and animals deserved be drowned on a planet-wide basis.
     
  13. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry, off-topic, not going to discuss that.

    You people don't seem to want to talk about the topic.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If all of you want to keep constantly bringing up separate arguments in this thread about how there can be no God, how God is evil, how the Bible is contradictory, etc. , then I'll take it that you concede my point, that it is possible that a good God could have a Hell ? And you don't really have any arguments against that.

    I know a few of you are willing to stay on topic and have genuine debate, but the majority of you do not.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  15. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    you tell us, you made the claim. It's why I asked.

    Sounds like moral relativism.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
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  16. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Well thank God he sacrificed himself to himself to save me from the hell he created.
     
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  17. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Jewish religion. The religion of the God of Abraham. Doesn't believe there is a hell with torture.
    They never even bring up the concept of hell.

    Sheol is the closest term they have.
    So, God's chosen group doesn't believe in what you're trying to claim in the OP.
     
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  18. DEFinning

    DEFinning Active Member Donor

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    Not necessarily; but you would have to take each god-example separately, & judge it w/in its particularly-defined (as by the dogma of some faith, for example) confines of morality.

    But to try to generalize your point, to apply to all gods, w/ results that would have any validity for all people (or even just for those in this forum), naturally is a patently impossible thing to attempt-- or, in the word of a recent poster to this thread, a "funny" thing to undertake-- which is why I was disappointed that you chose to so limit your argument's parameters.

    For any readers other than Kazenatsu, & especially for those who are impressed by technical-sounding terminology which they do not understand, what Kazenatsu was referring to with the impressive-sounding, "moral relativism," is simply the idea that the morals of one place, or one group, or at one particular historical time, etc., do not necessarily apply universally. In other words, it is something that, for the most part, is accepted as an obvious truth: with some relatively few exceptions-- and even those have occasionally, under extreme conditions, shaken loose-- each society's morals can only be confidently applied to that society, at that given time. Now THAT would make for an interesting thread.
     
  19. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Your particular god wants justice? How does your version of god achieve justice by believing a good person should burn in hell forever?
     
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  20. DEFinning

    DEFinning Active Member Donor

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    IF it was the case? That it would be presumptuous to think human moral ideas would necessarily match a GOD'S ideas of, "fair & just?" I think that's a pretty safe bet.

    Even if one believes that, "God," shares all His/Her/Its/Their thoughts on morality w/ man, the mere fact that different faiths' Divinely-inspired ideas don't identically match w/ regard to morals-- is divorce moral or immoral? Is it moral to kill a cow? How about to walk past someone in need?-- proves that morals are, at least to a degree, relativistic (and individualized, as well).

    This doesn't automatically make your argumentative question a, "moot point," however. You just have to define WHOSE morals you are using to make your assessment.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  21. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As I said, I would suggest that when people make the statement you started the thread about, they're thinking of the truly omnipotent and omnibenevolent god that many monotheists seem to believe in. And keeping in line with your strict rule of keeping to the exact topic, your beliefs about God are irrelevant since the question is about why other people make the statement. :cool:
     
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  22. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    The word "can't" means not physically able. So if someone alien from outer space has the technology to flood the earth is it morally right to do so according to you?
     
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  23. DEFinning

    DEFinning Active Member Donor

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    It looks like Kazy has, "some splainin' to do!"
     
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  24. DEFinning

    DEFinning Active Member Donor

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    I hope my enjoyment of seeing this, "turnabout--"
    probably because I consider it, "fair play--"
    doesn't make me wind me up in Kazenatsu-Purgatory.
     
  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You keep bringing up separate issues, not about the topic in the opening post.

    If you explain to me how we need to answer that question before we can answer the original question I brought up, then I will engage you in argument.
     

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