A note about France-American history

Discussion in 'History and Culture' started by LafayetteBis, Mar 9, 2019.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This comment is about the French participation in the Revolutionary War and about my namesake "Lafayette", a French nobleman of whom George and Martha Washington became very fond.

    The colony's primary concern at the time of the US revolution was ridding itself of the British King because he was exacting too much in taxation. But, in fact, much of the intelligent thinking about "freedom" was being held in Paris with French intellectuals of the same bent.

    Those meetings were being held in a restaurant that is still in Paris today. Le Procope was a key meeting place for French intellectuals bent on overthrowing their King. Franklin, Jefferson and John Paul Jones met with the French. Franklin himself was sent to Paris to meet with the French king, which ultimately resulted in France's help in the fight with its ancient enemy - England. The Treaty of Alliance signed with Louis XVI was instrumental in obtaining France's military aid in the American Revolution.

    The history of that time was very interesting and it would be nice if a movie would show Americans the genesis of its own revolution. There is not much mentioned of their meeting with my namesake - Lafayette - but he was a French noble before scampering off to the US. Where he became the son Washington never had.

    Lafayette returned to live in France after the war in the US, and tried ardently to get the French king to abdicate but keep his title. The French revolutionaries wanted to decapitate Louis XVI. Which finally occurred but that is an entirely different story. What is important is that both Franklin and Lafayette were able to convince the French king to help fight the British.

    What then happened historically is that French troops ultimately were key to the defeat of the British at Yorktown. And yet there is no tribute to that fact anywhere in Yorktown, it is a shame to say. I've looked around there and I did find the names of the French soldiers killed etched on a large stone tablet. But, there is no public notice of the stone or why it is there! (If anyone sees a tribute to France's participation in the Yorktown victory, please let me know.)

    Today, Lafayette is buried in the Picpus Cemetery (Paris), which is the only other place in France where the American flag flies day and night (aside from the our embassy). See photo here.

    PS: Should anyone have further historical information regarding France's participation in this key event at Yorktown, please do respond with some factual information. Thanks in advance!
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
  2. James Knapp

    James Knapp Well-Known Member

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    I think his name is better known now thanks to Hamilton than it would've been 10 years ago. Saying that, Hamilton is largely inaccurate and many think Lafayette was black! I know many teenagers who know who Marquis de Lafayette is so at least his name is getting out there.

    I find it strange that outside of France, no one knows who Maximillian Robespierre is either.
     
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  3. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, the problem is one of language. I'll bet you know who "Scrooge" is - because the author is English. But maybe you are as well, which is not the point. The point, if anything, is that though languages may be common, mentalities may differ. Anyone thinking that French France and French Canada are similar in both politics and outlook are in for a great surprise. Ditto English speaking America and, uh, England. Even a Scot will argue that s/he is different from a Brit!

    And translations do not really-'n-truly convey the same "spiritual message" as do the original. But that has to with the fact that - regardless of politics - the nations are all individuals and the different languages can produce different "opinions and sentiments". I would frankly not want to translate Robespierre. The Latin languages are both verbose and best at communicating emotion.

    My Point: It is really good fun to learn another language AND discover another people. It is a real challenge nonetheless to
    adopt a different "mentality", and live within it.

    I'm no expert either on languages and less so on "national mentalities", but I find the discussion enticing ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
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  4. Bezukhov

    Bezukhov Active Member

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  5. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Lafayette was literally chased out of France by the French king. Even though he was a "Marquis" and the family well-known. After the victory of the American revolution, however, he decided to bring democracy to France. That did not quite work out so well for him.

    The family comes from Chavaniac (a small town in the center of France - see here), not quite worth a visit unless one is keen on seeing the place. The family name goes back a long, long time to the 15th century and even the Crusades.

    Anyway, it's an interesting story and I have always wondered why Hollywood never did a film on the man who was Washington's unofficial "son" and key (along with French forces) to finally defeating the British at Yorktown. The British government soon after recognized the US as a nation ...

    PS: Interesting side-note is that in Picpus Cemetery, Lafayette is buried under earth removed from Bunker Hill (Boston).
     
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  6. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, you have to read French for that to happen. But, I'll bet that you talk to any French Canadian they will tell you that they "know" (meaning what*?) both Hamilton and Robespierre ...

    *Meaning that they have read the name in a history book about the US. But, I doubt one could say the same about an American who knew Canadian history!
     
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  7. James Knapp

    James Knapp Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that you have to read a certain language to understand someone and their history but it sure does help because as you say, translations are extremely variable (See the Bible!). I think it is true of most countries that you would learn about their historical figures over another country's. The exception usually being those who had a major impact on the world for good or bad (Mao Ze Dong, Hitler, Pol Pot etc).

    I have to use England as an example as it is the only one I have experience of but history was very boring and uninspiring in school. I find that the only way to really learn about history is through your own thirst for knowledge. It's also noteworthy that the UK's description of Lafayette will vary from Spain's for example.

    Another forgotten man in history is Toussaint L'ouverture. I'll wager that most people have never even heard this man's name and have no idea of the impact he had in Haiti.
     
  8. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Rereading this comment in a French reference provoked some further research, from which I quote this in French:
    Which I translate as: A square in Washington, DC is named after him and Lafayette was declared "Honorable Citizen of the United States" in 2002. (Done so by an act of Congress).

    Meaning he is one of eight individuals who have been accorded the honor of citizenship in the US. (See WikiP article here.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  9. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree. If one reads the history of Lafayette in English, one gets a good idea of his life and accomplishments (in war).

    But Lafayette, though very close to Washington, felt that he was obliged to return to France to help his fellow countrymen divorce themselves from the French king. In fact, he did try to save Louis XVII and his family but failed. Both Louis and his wife were beheaded. (Which is altogether another story I wont go into.)

    But he was active in the early 19th century attempting to bring American style "democracy" to France. Which he failed to accomplish as Napoleon furthered his own career to become not King but Emperor of France. France took another long, long time fo find a semblance of "real democracy".

    Still, this "thing" called democracy is hard to nail down. It has different meanings for different people ...

    (Or as some would say, "Your destiny is not in the stars but in yourself!" Now, extrapolate that notion to an entire nation? Mission Impossible!)
     
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  10. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    I learned this week, in a video on YouTube,

    that France put itself into a lot of debt to avenge the British (for something) to support the American Revolution.
    I also heard (not from this video) that this plan backfired on the French as an Independent America wanted to be close to England as well as France.
    Britain wasn't too keen to recognise an Independent America, like, British ships kidnapped American merchant sailors and forced them into the British Navy, and we kinda set fire to The White House in 1812 and was the only time the US has been invaded.
    But 1812 stopped the British from taking American merchant sailors, I think.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  11. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thanks for opening this discussion, LafayetteBis, for it's a subject that is not only near and dear to my heart but one I've had an opportunity to study for decades. Furthermore, I am a Virginian who has been to Yorktown and the battlefield on numerous occasions and am familiar with what happened there along with the central role France played in what is considered the decisive victory of the American Revolution.

    To be precise, the primary grievance was the quality of the taxation, not the quantity. Since the inhabitants of the British Colonies in America had no representation in the British Parliament in London, they considered the taxes levied by Parliament to be "taxation without representation", which was illegal under British law. Of course, there was more to this issue than taxation without representation. Parliament's insistence that it "had hath, and of right ought to have, full power and authority to make laws and statutes of sufficient force and validity to bind the colonies and people of America ... in all cases whatsoever", which was expressed in the Declaratory Act of 1766, was at the root of the conflict between the Colonists and the British government. It was this insistence and the Colonists' resistance that was at the core of the struggle of wills that ultimately led to open war in 1775.

    Incidentally, the taxes that Parliament attempted to impose on the Colonists were intended to help offset the costs associated with fighting France in the American theater of the Seven Years War (what we call the French and Indian War) and the stationing of British troops in America following the war. The presence of those troops and the British attempts to get the Colonists to support them were what ultimately set in motion the chain of events that led to the American Revolution.

    Indeed, Franklin was instrumental in obtaining France's support but the American victory at Saratoga was what convinced the French it was worth the expense. Ironically, that was a decision that contributed to the downfall of the ancien régime in France.

    There have been some TV miniseries that have delved into the genesis of the Revolution (which generally covers the period from the Sugar Act of 1764 to the Battles of Lexington and Concord in 1775, but could be traced back as far 1750 when Jonathan Mayhew delivered his sermon Discourse Concerning Unlimited Submission, which challenged the "divine rights" of kings).

    Here's a photo of the base of the victory column at Yorktown:

    [​IMG]

    As anyone familiar with the events surrounding the Battle of Yorktown can tell you, the French engineers under Rochambeau and the French fleet under de Grasse played an indispensable role in the victory over Cornwallis' army.
     
  12. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [​IMG]

    Battery line of French mortars at Yorktown Battlefield
     
  13. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Plaque at Redoubt No. 9 at Yorktown

    [​IMG]

    Plaque at Redoubt No. 10 at Yorktown

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Monument to 50 unidentified French soldiers who were KIA at the Battle of Yorktown:

    [​IMG]
     
  15. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The American flag flies every day and all night in only two places in France. At the American embassy and Lafayette's grave in Pictus Cemetery. As shown here:
    [​IMG]

    Thanks for the photo. More than a decade ago, I stopped my car in some anonymous place off the side of the road a few miles from Yorktown.

    There - on a stone tablet that was very, very old and neglected - was engraved the names of about 20/30 French soldiers. Without any indication of why the testament existed. I am pleased to see that this one shown above is evident.

    In the Latin Quarter of Paris is the oldest restaurant still in existence. It is called Le Procope, originally opened by an Italian by the name of Procopio.

    During the years just prior to the American revolution and that of France as well, it was a haven for "free thinkers" and was frequented by three well-known Americans prior to the Revolutionary War.

    From WikiPedia:
    And if those three gentlemen would enter it today, they would recognize it immediately. It hasn't changed that much ...

    He's not that popular any more in France either. The French are taught history in school - and, as a country, their history of the nation goes back to around the year 1000. So, there is a lot to absorb.

    Besides, Robespierre was a highly debated personage during his time of great upheaval in France. And all for what? Their so-called "dream of independence" only lead to chaos and ... Napoleon!

    France did not embrace democratic values for another century or so, when it retired Napoleon III in 1873. To this day, the importance of a Married Male as head of government is a prevalent value. French women are coming up slowly-but-well in French politics, but there is not yet any Nancy Pelosi.

    Not yet, but even that is just a question of time ...
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
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  16. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thanks for the photos!

    I am indeed pleased to see that the help of the French Army is publicly noticeable.

    On Normandy beach every year without fail American deaths are commemorated as well. And also in the southwest of France, where we Yanks also landed to fight the Germans.

    So the deaths of Our Boys does not go forgotten even nowadays ...
     
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  17. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're most welcome.

    Yorktown is perhaps the one place where France's contribution to our struggle for independence is most evident and appreciated, and we will remain forever grateful for that assistance, most particularly to the Frenchmen who gave their lives fighting alongside our own soldiers.

    I'm sorry to hear about the neglected memorial and I hope that situation has rectified. Unfortunately, this isn't terribly uncommon in Virginia where some of the markers commemorating Revolutionary War battles and memorials to our own soldiers have fallen into a state of neglect. Why that has been allowed to happen is somewhat of a mystery to me.

    Fascinating.

    Benjamin Franklin was by far the most savvy and talented of our emissaries to France (in stark contrast to the boorish John Adams) although it was Thomas Jefferson who wound up becoming the greatest Francophile and supporter of the French Revolution, which is still a much debated event here in America.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
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  18. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And one more "story" of the Franco-American experience of that age. One that I cannot corroborate except by historical accounts - which, funny enough, differ in version depending upon whether they were French or American in origin.

    I will spare you the French version, because I am in no mood to translate it. They are not terribly different.

    But, this is in English is from the National Geographic:
    The design of the house by L'Enfant looked like this one which is actually in the Dordogne of France:
    [​IMG]

    There was a falling out with L'Enfant, but the subsequent designs considered were more or less the same. Besides, the design of the White House also resembles the Leinster house in Dublin of the same period:
    [​IMG]

    (Take your pick of historical renditions regarding the matter ... ! ;^)
     
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  19. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We had some very brave and very smart people that both instigated and conducted the revolution. They knew that they were putting their lives on the line.

    Anecdote: Upon arriving to work in Paris I was assigned a French secretary by the family-name of Franklin. She insisted that she was a descendant of BF.

    (Hmmmn ... no wonder Benjamin made so many visits to Paris! ;^)
     
  20. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As well it should be - without the French victory at Yorktown was not possible. One of the things I learned when I first visited the battlefield is that the Continental Army didn't have siege engineers and artillery, so we were forced to rely on the French.

    Incidentally, the U.S. Navy used to have a Spruance Class guided missile destroyer named after the French admiral whose fleet defeated the Royal Navy at the Battle of Chesapeake Capes:

    [​IMG]

    Our navy has been replacing those destroyers with the newer Aegis Class destroyers, so the USS Comte de Grasse got decommissioned about 10 years ago. It doesn't look like the Count will be getting another warship named after him any time soon, either. Lately, the Navy has been naming its destroyers after distinguished sailors, marines and SEALs such as Michael Murphy who was KIA in Afghanistan and awarded the MOH posthumously. His sacrifice is also immortalized in the 2013 film Lone Survivor.

    I've seen the commemorations at Normandy on TV and the folks in the region are very gracious towards Americans. I can't say I'm familiar with the commemorations in the southwest - where are they held?
     
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  21. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Indeed. Over the years I've really come to respect Samuel Adams for the enormous role he played during the struggle for independence, and he did this at the risk of being hung for treason by the British. I consider Adams and George Washington the two indispensable men of the Revolution - Adams being the indispensable man before the Revolutionary War and Washington during it.

    Franklin was certainly fond of the ladies (to his poor neglected wife's detriment), and this served him and our country well while he was in France. From what I've read the men doing business at the French court were expected to be flirtatious with the women as this was considered a form of flattery and to some extent respect. John Adams, on the other hand, never appreciated and cared for this and other social niceties, which ultimately led to French foreign minister Vergennes' refusal to deal with the jerk who would become our second president. This, of course, became a major irritant and problem for Franklin who was forced to marginalize Adams in order to prevent him from upsetting America's diplomatic efforts in France.
     
  22. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Fascinating - you learn something new every day!

    I was not familiar with the Chateau de Rastignac until you brought it to my attention. It's got quite a history, to say the least:

     
  23. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If anyone has access to Systran, they might want to translate this document below into English about Franklin whilst in Paris. I tried to find a translator on the Web, but its length is too long.

    Still, the very last line is a tribute to Franklin that is well worth my time:
    "La vie de Benjamin Franklin fut si longue et si remplie que nous avons décidé de vous la présenter sous un angle qui vous concerne.

    Né à Boston, il y a 300 ans, Benjamin Franklin y grandit et fréquenta la Boston Latin School, où il apprit le français. Il était non seulement capable de lire le français, mais aussi d’avoir de l’esprit et de faire des mots d’esprit en français. Lorsqu’il arrive en France (décembre 1776), représentant des insurgés américains, il connaît déjà bien notre pays qu’il a visité en 1767 et 1769. De plus, il a été élu membre de l’Académie des Sciences en 1772 et, avec toute l’admiration du XVIIIe siècle pour les scientifiques, on l’appelle “Docteur Franklin”, l’inventeur du paratonnerre.

    Après avoir reçu Julien de Bonvouloir, le premier émissaire secret de Louis XVI et de son Ministre des affaires étrangères Vergennes, à Carpenter’s Hall à Philadelphie, il est mandaté par le Congrès. Il part pour la France, mais la Royal Navy, qui patrouille sur toutes les mers adorerait le capturer. Il arrive finalement à filer entre ses mailles et il débarque à Auray en Bretagne du Sud. Craignant d’être en danger par la route la plus directe, il descend vers le Sud, jusqu’à Nantes. Son voyage de Nantes à Paris sera un triomphe. Cet homme de 7 ans fait la route dans un attelage léger et tout le long du parcours, il avance entre une haie de citoyens et citoyennes français venus voir et saluer le “Docteur Franklin”. Retrouvons sa trace dans Paris :

    Au 4 Place de la Concorde, il sera le 6 février 1778 avec ses concitoyens Silas Deane et Arthur Lee le signataire du traité par lequel Louis XVI, roi de France, fut le premier au monde à reconnaître l’indépendance des Etats-Unis.

    Au 56 de la Rue Jacob, il sera avec John Adams et John Jay le signataire du traité par lequel le roi d’Angleterre reconnaîtra l’indépendance de ses treize colonies d’Amérique à la suite de la guerre où 2500 militaires français perdirent la vie.

    Sur la colline de Chaillot, au village de Passy – maintenant XVIe arrondissement de Paris – Franklin est très présent. Il habita au coin des Rues Scheffer et Raynouard, y reçut de nombreux visiteurs et admiratrices. Il était logé gratuitement par M. et Mme de Chaumont mais, devenu ambassadeur d’un nouvel Etat indépendant, il insiste pour payer son loyer. C’est ici qu’il installa le premier paratonnerre et c’est là aussi qu’il créa un atelier pour reprendre son métier d’imprimeur et d’auteur. Il y imprimera les premiers passeports américains.
    Suivons-le ensuite de la Rue Raynouard jusqu’à la Rue Franklin. A l’extrémité de la Rue Franklin , saluons sa statue d’où le grand sage pouvait voir le Champs de Mars, c’est là qu’en 1790, flottait le drapeau étoilé, présenté pour la première fois hors des Etats-Unis.

    Nous le retrouvons aussi à la Monnaie, dont le Directeur est Condorcet. L’épouse de cet homme célèbre, que les américains avaient fait citoyen de Newhaven, est Sophie de Grouchy. Cette brillante muse tient un Salon où, elle et Condorcet, accueillent non seulement Franklin, mais aussi Lafayette, Beaumarchais, Thomas Jefferson et Thomas Paine.

    Enfin, saluons le 16 place Vendôme, où l’expert scientifique, le Dr Franklin, vient enquêter, à la demande du roi, sur les agissements du “Magnétiseur” Messmer.

    Les deux autres “experts” français à sa hauteur sont Lavoisier et Bailly, qui sera le premier maire de Paris. Docteur Franklin avait aussi fait un rapport sur l’ascension de Montgolfier en ballon au Bois de Boulogne.

    Chez Voltaire de retour de Fernay, Franklin lui présente son petit-fils. Voltaire mit la main sur la tête du jeune homme et accompagne cette “bénédiction” des deux mots “God and Liberty”.

    Les Français sont fous de Franklin. Les dames portent des robes appelées “Lightning conductor” en l’honneur de l’inventeur du paratonnerre.

    On voit dans tout Paris des chapeaux, des gants, des blagues à tabac “à la Benjamin Franklin”.

    Les Parisiens pleurent son départ en 1785 et, à sa mort, en 1790, non seulement l’Assemblée Constituante interrompit ses débats en signe de deuil, mais un immense hommage lui est rendu de la rue du Louvre à la Halle aux Bleds (aujourd’hui la Bourse du Commerce), où 5 000 personnes écoutent les hommages des représentants du roi, de la ville de Paris et des ouvriers imprimeurs.

    Terminons par Versailles, où Benjamin Franklin avait osé paraître à la Cour sans perruque et où Louis XVI accueilli son successeur, Thomas Jefferson, en lui disant “Ah, c’est vous qui remplacez le Docteur Franklin”. Jefferson répondit “Majesté, personne ne peut remplacer le Docteur Franklin. Je suis seulement son successeur !”

    Et ne manquez pas la rue Franklin qui rejoint la rue Vergennes pour déboucher sur l’Avenue de Paris !

    Pour conclure, on ne peut faire mieux que citer Mirabeau, qui salua sa mémoire à l’Assemblée en disant “Benjamin Franklin, le génie qui affranchit l’Amérique et versa sur l’Europe des torrents de lumière. Le sage, que deux mondes réclament."

     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  24. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    VERY interesting!

    I see that "politics" was a game just as much as it still is to this day ... !
     
  25. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of minor consequence, but interesting nonetheless, France was the first to recognize America as an independent country in 1778.
     

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