A pocket guide to climate change or the basics of the science made easy

Discussion in 'Science' started by Bowerbird, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Science is not a holy link, peer review, journal, experiment, etc.

    I have already supported my claims.
     
  2. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    I just gave you 2 experiments which prove green house gas exists, and how they work. I acknowledge your total inability to refute the science you have been presented, and I accept your concession.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  3. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    What science? Religion, yes, but no science.
     
  4. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    I again acknowledge your total inability to refute the science you have been presented, and I accept your concession a second time.

    All it takes for you to prove your assertion is a simple experiment that shows the 2 experiments I gave you are wrong. We both know of course that you can not do that.

    Also, you need to look up the definition of religion, as you are using it incorrectly, like you use the definition of science incorrectly.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Theories explain how a process works. Laws do not explain how a process works.
    You're just suggesting that no testing is required.

    And, NOBODY believes that.
     
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever worn a coat?
     
  7. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Theories are explanatory arguments. Obviously they explain how a process works. Laws are simply the formalization of a theory into a closed functional system (typically mathematics, but can also be logic).

    I have never suggested any such thing. Now you're resorting to making schiff up.
     
  8. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    RAAA. (Repetitious Argumentation Already Addressed)
     
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Our atmosphere acts in the same way. Thus planets with no atmospheres have extreme temperatures.

    The components of our atmosphere slow different frequencies of radiation. It's perfectly reasonable to have a gas that will slow


    You have only cited laws. Laws are NOT theories.

    Theories describe a process. Laws don't describe a process. If you remove the process description from a theory, you are left with ... nothing.
    You are suggesting your idea is true even though you can't cite any experimentation.

    The entire world of sciences related to climatology sees experimentation as being absolutely required if we are to understand the sources of Earth's warming.
     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Science demonstrates that various gasses slow radiation by reflecting long wave radiation.

    Heat radiation can be slowed - as shown in my cite on this thread.

    The issue I have with your posts is that you refulse to cite any source of experimentation on the topic, suggesting that studying how heat radiates from earth is a useless field of endeavor - even though scientists from around the world see that as utter nonsense.

    Why do you reject experimental science on this topic?
     
  11. skepticalmike

    skepticalmike Well-Known Member

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    This article explains how adding a cold plate to a warm plate receiving 400 watts per square meter can raise the temperature of the warm plate.


    http://rabett.blogspot.com/2017/10/an-evergreen-of-denial-is-that-colder.html


    We start out in a situation like this: The temperature of the blue plate is calculated to be 244 degrees K from the Stefan-Boltzmann law.

    [​IMG]


    We add a cool green plate and at thermal equilibrium we have:


    [​IMG]


    The equilibrium temperature can be calculated for the blue plate after equilibrium and it will be 262 degrees K. The cooler green plate raise the temperature of the blue plat by 18 degrees K.
     
  12. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    False Equivalence Fallacies. (open convective system with a closed convective system, thermal energy source with a non-thermal energy source).

    Riddle me this:

    The ISS reaches 250degF when it faces the sun. There is no atmosphere around it, and no CO2 around it. Now, IF CO2 "warms the Earth", then why is the Earth (which has an atmosphere filled with CO2) so much COLDER during the day?

    It is not possible to slow/trap heat.

    Laws are formalized theories. You can't have a law without first having a theory.

    Theories are explanatory arguments. Laws result from formalizing those explanatory arguments into a closed functional system (such as mathematics).

    I've already cited what is relevant.

    RandU Fallacy.

    It is not possible to warm the Earth using IR emitted from Earth's surface.

    You haven't even determined that Earth is warming. You simply have faith that it is warming. Purely religious belief on your part. You are part of The Church.
     
  13. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    It is not possible to slow/trap heat.

    The Laws of Thermodynamics. Already cited.

    ...except for the ones that don't, of course.

    Why do you reject the Laws of Thermodynamics on this topic?
     
  14. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    it is a demonstrable fact that heat can be and is slowed/trapped.

    you don't know what the laws even say, let alone mean.
    no scientist does.

    nobody rejects them, except for you. they are just another in a long list of things you don't know the meaning of.
     
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  15. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Heat does not flow from cold to hot.
     
  16. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    he literally just showed you that it can and does, lol
     
  17. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    All he showed was a lack of understanding of the Laws of Thermodynamics and the Stefan Boltzmann Law.
     
  18. skepticalmike

    skepticalmike Well-Known Member

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    The earth's surface and atmosphere do not comprise a closed system. The sun is providing a nearly constant source of an energy to warm the earth's surface. The earth's surface warms the atmosphere

    and the atmosphere warms the earth's surface. Indirectly, the sun is warming the atmosphere and some of the radiation emitted by the atmosphere makes its way back to the earth's surface so the sun

    is the ultimate cause of all of the warming of the earth's surface. The greenhouse gases in the atmosphere reduce the ability or efficiency of earth-atmosphere system to radiate energy back to space as

    shown in my previous post of a graph showing radiation flux from the earth as observed from space.

    The second law of thermodynamics according to livescience.com :

    The Second Law states that heat energy cannot be transferred from a body at a lower temperature to a body at a higher temperature without the addition of energy. This is why it costs money to run an air conditioner.

    It can also be stated as:
    Heat can never pass from a colder to a warmer body without some other change, connected therewith, occurring at the same time.

    The sun is the source of energy or the "other change " that occurs at the same time. Also, the net flow of heat in this example is from warmer bodies to cooler bodies and the same is true for the earth-

    atmosphere system. From what I have read, it is the net flow of heat as energy that matters and not the flow of heat in one direction.

    There isn't a climate scientist anywhere that I know of who claims that the greenhouse effect violates the laws of thermodynamics and that includes climate contrarians.
     
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  19. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    But what he actually showed you was that it can and does. If you feel it’s incorrect, you need to provide your evidence that his was wrong. Saying “Nuh uh” or throwing out scientific terms you don’t understand doesn’t rebut what was given to you.
     
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  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    We DO have an atmosphere and the ISS does not.

    Our atmosphere allows a certain level of solar radiation in and allows a certain amount of longer wave heat radiation to leave Earth.

    There is a balance between these two factors that gives Earth the temperature we have today.

    Climatologists say that humans can change that balance, because we can affect the composition of the atmosphere. The major one is that the longer wave heat radiation can be slowed by water vapor, methane, and CO2 (at least).
    That's not what's happening.

    As per the above, there is a balance between solar radiation arriving and longer wave radiation leaving.

    Humans can warm Earth by changing the atmosphere such that it slows long wave radiation while still allowing solar radiation to penetrate.
    Right. I haven't measured Earth's temperature. Surely you can understand that one person can't do that.

    However, there is a world wide army of scientists who DO measure Earth's temperature using various approaches, allowing for cross checking.

    Suggesting that the entire world of scientists measureing Earth's temperature are in some sort of conspiracy is just plain preposterous.

    And, you have NO evidence of that.
     
  21. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Correct. For future reference, this is the Sun-Earth-Space system. Heat flows from Sun, to Earth, to Space. Heat flows from hot to cold.

    Correct.

    WRONG. Heat CANNOT flow from cold to hot. Heat simply flows out into space. It does not flow back towards the Earth's surface. See the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

    No, the sun is directly warming the atmosphere, just as it is with the surface. Heat only flows from hot to cold, never the opposite.

    There is no such thing as a "greenhouse gas". No magick gas is able to warm the Earth's surface using IR emitted from Earth's surface.

    Now you're speaking of a completely different system than you started off with... No, let's stick with the Sun-Earth-Space system...

    Nope. You can't consider space anymore since it is outside of the system that you switched to... You need to define your system and stick to it.

    Okay.

    Nope. You can't, in mid-argument, switch from a Sun-Earth-Space system (no "outside energy source" being considered) to an Earth-atmosphere system (now appealing to the sun as an "outside energy source"). Either the Sun is considered as part of the system or it isn't. You can't have it both ways.

    There is no such thing as "net flow" of heat. Heat ONLY flows from hot to cold. See the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics that you quoted. You are attempting to get around that law by switching mid-argument between a Sun-Earth-Space system (the sun being within the system) and an Earth-atmosphere system (the sun now being outside the system).

    You need to clearly define your system and not switch between the two mid-argument... You've been committing a False Equivalence Fallacy as well as the Goalpost Moving Fallacy.

    There is no such thing as "net flow" of heat.

    RandU Fallacy.
    False Authority Fallacy.
     
  22. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Then obviously CO2 does not warm the Earth...

    Also, it is not possible to slow/trap heat.

    Correct, but you are claiming that it somehow IS happening...

    The atmosphere is not a magick blanket. It is not possible to slow/trap heat.

    Then how do you know it is warming? It's just your religious belief.

    8 billion people can't measure it either...

    No there isn't. It is not possible to measure the temperature of the Earth. We don't have near enough thermometers. We also do not know the emissivity of Earth.

    Nobody is measuring Earth's temperature.
     
  23. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    every point you've made above has been thoroughly proven false using scientific evidence and experimentation.
     
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  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    How our atmosphere works isn't just a matter of climatology. It also affects weather.

    For example, clear nights are colder than are nights where there is a blanket of stable cloud layer.

    Thus we can easily see that water vapor is a major greenhouse gas.

    You aren't just disputing climatology.

    You are disputing major branches of science practiced daily world wide.

    And, so far you have NO evidence.
     
  25. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    You can't set up a control reference for this kind of thing. You don't know what other factors were at play... Were the clouds there during the day? Did warmer/colder air move in? Water droplet clouds absorb vast quantities of heat and retain it quite well, you know...
     

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