A Poll for Christians on Three Beliefs that Infuriate Atheists

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by JavaBlack, Aug 26, 2011.

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Christians only: Do you believe any of the following?

  1. Faith is necessary for truly good works

    69.2%
  2. All sinners deserve eternal suffering, but only those without faith will suffer

    30.8%
  3. Faith is a conscious choice; lack of faith is rebellion against God

    61.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. smileyface

    smileyface Banned

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    It's a good thing there is no god as everyone would be going to hell. I can't think of anyone that hasn't broken at least one and probably more than that.
     
  2. JavaBlack

    JavaBlack New Member

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    I'll probably be a bit behind... I think I might be a born-again atheist in some ways. I was a convert, not born into a Christian upbringing.

    Christian: 13
    Universalist: 16
    New Age: 20ish
    Deist: 25
    Agnostic: 27ish
    Atheistic-leaning Agnostic: 31

    I still don't call myself an atheist much because I don't want to be associated with the so-called "New Atheists" (Hitchens and Harris) irritate me with their crazed beliefs that religion causes the world's ills (Harris even went so far as to say that dangerous enough beliefs can be sufficient justification to oppress or execute someone... and he seemed like the nicer one up until then)

    There is certainly truth to that. I reflexively ask God for help in really nasty situations.
    I think humans, to some extent, are wired to seek an anthropomorphic side in nature, and as such we plead with it. We also have a tendency to magical thinking at times.
    I have noticed that I have little rituals when dealing with random things outside my control (a lot in games). It's just something about our species, I guess.
     
  3. MAYTAG

    MAYTAG Active Member

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    We humans just want God to leave us alone. Stop torturing us for all eternity if we don't do what you say! Just leave us be! Is that really too much to ask? Mind your own business, God?
     
    Jolly Penguin likes this.
  4. kmisho

    kmisho New Member Past Donor

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    I've always thought Harris is the worst of them. His philosophizing is simplistic and (hence) polemic. One thing that irks me about him is that I'm tired of Buddhists speaking for atheists. I think Buddhism is mostly stupid too!

    Hitchens himself admitted that his atheism is orthodox. That is he rejects certain types of Gods. I don't care for him either.

    Dawkins is awesome...when he sticks to evolution and science. His anti-theology is slapdash.
     
  5. Crawdadr

    Crawdadr Well-Known Member

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    First thank you for the poll, I like this one and it should yield a lot of conversation.



    Faith is necessary for truly good works Y
    All sinners deserve eternal suffering, but only those without faith will suffer
    N
    Faith is a conscious choice; lack of faith is rebellion against God Y



    Faith is necessary for truly good works: This I put yes on. It is my belief that to truly do good you need Gods guidance. My reasoning is that when ever you do a good deed there is some kind of personal gain involved. Now I am not saying that you gain something like money (though you could because of awards) but often times their is some form of personal gratification. Doing good deeds makes you feel good, or important, or martyred. Perhaps you are looking to gain standing or recognition in your community. Or perhaps you are trying to impress God to gain salvation. But I think St Maximos the Confessor said it best in the 7th century:

    Many human activities, good in themselves, are not good because of the motive for which they are done. For example, fasting, vigils, prayer, psalmody (singing hymns), acts of charity and hospitality are by nature good. But when performed for the sake of self-esteem they are not good. In everything we do, God searches out our purpose to see whether we do it for Him or for some other motive.........quite Clearly He bestows blessings only when something is done for the right purpose. For God's judgment looks not at the actions, but at the purpose behind them. (Excerpt from "works in Paul's Writings", The Orthodox Study Bible)

    Doing good things to feel better about ones self or because you think it is your duty is fine. But make no mistake you are doing it for your self as well. Only through God's grace can we go beyond that and do works to glorify God and not our selves. Works without faith are dead, faith without works is hypocrisy.


    Faith is a conscious choice; lack of faith is rebellion against God I also put a yes on. This was a little harder for me because often times faith defies logic. But I decided to put yes because of what I have seen of the Church. Gods message has been placed before the world. We have heard it, seen it, and many have read it in the scriptures. To add to that you can find aspects of the divine in every day life from the birth of a child to the death of a loved one. All around us God speaks to us if we have the ears to hear.

    But our nature is to be sinful and to rebel. The first major act of humans in scripture was rebellion against God. When Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge I think it has to do with our free will and the need of all children to test their limits with their parents. But eventually a child has to decide to either turn away from his parents or to reconcile with them. God just like our parents loves us but only the child can make the decision.
     
  6. smileyface

    smileyface Banned

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    Speaking for myself, I don't believe that a true atheist would pray even in the flippant fashion you suggest. To pray would be to suggest a certain doubt and if there is a doubt you are not an atheist. You are an agnostic.
    I would never consider that particular prayer. I do not demean your aunt in any way please do not take what I said the wrong way.
    I do not pray for anything. I am put out by anything who knows me who tells me they will or are praying for me. I have no use for anything religious or it's trappings.

    I do find it interesting to dialogue with religious people as I find that childlike faith very odd. Not bad, for them but odd for an adult to carry such fervor for something that does not exist and can't possibly exist.
     
  7. smileyface

    smileyface Banned

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    None of those things bother me at all. I consider Faith or belief in a god to be childish and so consider the inner child of a person speaking when obnoxious things are said. They don't know any better.
    The only thing that infuriates me is when those children wish to impose their bizarre beliefs on me by way of influencing laws.
     
  8. Southpaw

    Southpaw Well-Known Member

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    Do you mind explaining what you mean by "can't possibly exist?"

    Or, if you mean it as it appears you mean it, can you tell me why you think God can't possibly exist? I profess a certain curiosity as that is a very strong statement.
     
  9. Southpaw

    Southpaw Well-Known Member

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    Was your argument / dissatisfaction / disagreement with Christ or the church?
     
  10. elijah

    elijah New Member

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    If you don't want to hear about God, why are you on a religious forum?
     
  11. smileyface

    smileyface Banned

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    It goes against everything that has ever been discovered about the planet and nature. The entire idea is just so outlandish I can't even consider a vague possibility. There is absolutely no evidence that such a being ever existed or even could. The belief defies logic and common sense. So no there is no god nor can this thing possibly be.
     
  12. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    Three is a rather short list of ridiculous and short sighted arguments.
     
  13. smileyface

    smileyface Banned

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    If he listed them all the forum would have crashed.
     
  14. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    [crash] more often. lol
     
  15. smileyface

    smileyface Banned

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    LOL or totally.
     
  16. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    Because they are right? Put into practice lead to good things?

    Why 'shouldn't' we?

    All men are created fo God with different strengths and weaknesses. You make you own destiny before a loving and understanding God. Ignorance, not elitism, seems to rule the day for those who reject it.

    Nope, that is called an excuse rather than a rebuttal.
     
  17. Southpaw

    Southpaw Well-Known Member

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    I hope you are aware that there is a difference between "there is no evidence for it" and "it cannot possibly exist." It seems as though you are treating them as one and the same, or at least closely related.

    The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
     
  18. smileyface

    smileyface Banned

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    According to the observable cosmos, nature, and all that I in my life have seen and read the very idea of such a being goes against everything that is. It defies any rational or reasonable logic. Nothing points to such a being and there is no footprint that such a being has or ever could be. It simply only exists in the minds of those who have been altered by indoctrination.
    Consider this, if as a child your parents grandparents and in school told you that everything around you had been created by Elves as in the Lord of the Rings. Then they read you a chapter and interpreted that to mean something. Would you believe that?

    Also consider this. We will consider Delusional Disorder. If you have this disorder you imagine things that are not there. You hear voices that aren't audible to anyone else. You can also be led by these voices and this invisible beings. That is what Delusional Disorder is. Now here is what i have heard from religious people. They are led by a spirit. An unseen being or voice. They see visions. Things not visible to others. They are led by said spirit. (Borders on Paranoid Schizophrenia) They are instructed by said spirit.
    They describe a clinical case of Acute Delusional Disorder.

    No there is no god. Not then not now. Not tomorrow. That is an absolute in my mind.
     
  19. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    Oh does it?

    Lets talk about science shall we? Would you care to explain to us how a super dense pin point sized bit of pure eneregy just happened to appear into a universe that was not even created yet? Would you care to consider for a moment what set this aparently fully natural thing off, something that has happened only once - and never again?

    However, it is your contrention that the issue has been fully investigated and that all manners of debate on this issue have been irrefutably solved meaning that all those who disagree with you suffer from acute delusional disorder? Because they disagree with your certainty in the utter abscence of anything other than the claim of abscence?

    I think that pretty much defines a much simpler mental disorder: arrogance.
     
  20. smileyface

    smileyface Banned

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    I never said nor mentioned science. I never used the word investigation. Nor did I say what I believe about the existence of the cosmos.
    What I said and plainly I might add is that there is no evidence of a god. None. The idea of a god defies logic totally. It defies everything that we do know of nature and it's workings.
    The belief as I stated follows a clinical case of Acute Delusions; Disorder.
    No I claim non existence because the idea of god is so fanciful it is not even worth consideration. An adult who harbors such a childish belief does sound to me as if they require psychological help. With all of that said there is no evidence at all of such a beings having ever been. None.
    How can anyone over the age of reason even consider such an idea? I just don't understand how you can attempt to defend belief in such fantasy. Imaginary phantoms leading and teaching people. Voices spoken in a persons head that teach. Excuse me that is some serious mental disorder brought about by the abuse of religious indoctrination.
     
  21. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    No. Believing the truth is never a choice, and believing a lie is never done consciously.
    It's not that it demands punishment, but that the unrepentant sinner won't have it otherwise.
    True, but there are not necessarily any religious trappings associated with faith.
     
  22. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    Claim whatever you want. You offer nothing except opinion. We already know that you think God is not real. Why? Well, because you faith tells you so.

    Say there is no evidence all you want, but the reality is that a lot of scientists seem to think there is and billions of people do to. I guess they are all just total idiots and it is a good thing you are here to correect their factual errors with ... unsupported opinions.
     
  23. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

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    Maybe you should referrence the Strauss Kane case to test that theory.
     
  24. JavaBlack

    JavaBlack New Member

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    I agree on all that. I also like Hawkings (of course he's a scientist, and he is very respectful about faith).
    Hitchens and Harris are like the living embodiments of the strawmen zealots want to knock down.

    On the first point, isn't doing something for God's grace also in some way selfish?
    When I help people less fortunate than myself, I'm doing it partially for something like social stability or a sustainable future, which is somewhat self-interested but very indirect... and likely not going to affect me at some point in my lifetime (I don't believe in karma either, after all). If I wind up poor, no one is any more likely to help me because I helped others. If I don't and social stability falls, I don't believe my kindness to the poor will save me.
    God, on the other hand, does promise Heaven. At the very least, this is a transcendent feeling that benefits the self.

    On the second point, the fact that words have been spread doesn't mean that they make sense to people. Many other worldviews have been spread throughout the world throughout time. Is it willful to not believe them also?

    It wasn't really that so much. I was never a big fan of organized religion. I had a personal relationship with God. I simply lost faith, stopped believing. I tried to believe for a while into this loss (it was pretty painful), and I think that made things worse.

    Explain this "won't have it otherwise" concept.
     
  25. Crawdadr

    Crawdadr Well-Known Member

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    In your first part I would point out that if you are doing good works to get into heavan then it is most deffinatly selfish. It is almost impossible for some one to divest themselves of some form of self interest when doing action. That is why it takes the support of God to achieve a truely sefless act.

    On your second point if you hear the truth and then hear lies, it is going to be up to you which you believe. I say through the Holy Spirit that any person can see the truth. But also all people have free will and can choose to go another path.
     

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