A Poll for Christians on Three Beliefs that Infuriate Atheists

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by JavaBlack, Aug 26, 2011.

?

Christians only: Do you believe any of the following?

  1. Faith is necessary for truly good works

    69.2%
  2. All sinners deserve eternal suffering, but only those without faith will suffer

    30.8%
  3. Faith is a conscious choice; lack of faith is rebellion against God

    61.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. kmisho

    kmisho New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    Messages:
    9,259
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Which God? If you're talking about the God of the Bible, I'm definitely against him.
     
  2. kmisho

    kmisho New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    Messages:
    9,259
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Now explain to me how we get from the requirement of faith, that faith is unavoidable, to the the idea that faith is good.

    If you fall out of an airplane, it's pretty much required and unavoidable that you fall to the ground and go splat. Does that mean, if you happen to fall out of a plane, that going splat is good?
     
  3. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    16,105
    Likes Received:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Which god? Thor? Zeus? Yaweh? Flying Spaghetti Monster?

    Where is the love and compassion in what you just said? With me or against me, there is no middle ground? Why is it that Christians always, without fail, contradict themselves on the notion of god's love?
     
  4. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    18,423
    Likes Received:
    886
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Thank you, this says everything about your sanity that needs saying.
     
  5. JavaBlack

    JavaBlack New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    21,729
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Exclusivism is one of the things that enables monotheistic religions to retain followers. It gives both psychological and promised metaphysical rewards to those who accept the one truth. All other truths lead to punishment or at least forfeiture of reward.

    Christianity and Islam actually balance exclusivism with inclusivism, which enables them to recruit a lot better than other religions.
    You'll notice a strong difference between the fundamentalist wings and evangelical wings of Christianity (at least in the past, when these groups were not so politically connected). Fundamentalists tend to emphasize strict rules and hostility to other beliefs, increasing the psychological rewards of belonging (and costs of leaving) while also putting off any would-be converts.
    Evangelicals tend to emphasize that anyone can join, that the relationship with God is personal and the process varies. This makes the rewards of allegience a little less, but increases the ability to convert and to retain drifting members (more likely to stretch than snap).

    I think it's important in studying religions to look at them as evolving institutions. It's the only thing that really explains them. It also helps to explain what it is people get out of religion and why humans are drawn to it.
     
  6. Neutral

    Neutral New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    14,003
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well, why not take your pick atheists and examine the claims and facts of any of them?

    Find out why the silly claims you make are ALREADY classified as mythology, debauched fantasy from a straining wearing moron, and some remain ... religion?

    Or, I suppose you could continue to advocate the guilt by association fallacy in inebriated ignorance that simply claims the evidence for all is the same ... because you say so. (An appeal to authority no less).

    For some reason, everyone but atheists seem to understand the obvious, and atheists are still struggling with the 'logic' of Santa not being real.

    Sucks to an atheists calling oneself 'smart' in that logical predicament.

    A. If I acknowledge that santa can be proven false, that means I have to admit that I have been a raging jerk to a lot of people ...

    or ...

    B. I can continue to utter the same fallicious nonesense and be pegged a moron by anyone with even half a brain on their shoulder.

    Dang!

    Well, the real question would be exactly how hard is it to admit that one is wrong, and for atheists, so concerned with facts and honesty, that appears to be doubly hard for some reason.
     
  7. JavaBlack

    JavaBlack New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    21,729
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    0
    By comparing Santa to Thor, you're also making a terrible analogy.
    Thor is closer to the monotheistic God than to Santa.

    Santa was never really a myth but a legend, a tale spun around a historical human being (like King Arthur or Paul Bunyan), giving him outlandish qualities to serve as a moral story or analogy of some sort.
    As time went on, they became folk tales and connected to silly rituals for children. No one really believed it (except maybe the miracles attributed to St. Nicholas).

    Thor was a deity actually believed in by a people. He was seen as beyond the human world with the other gods, his tales taking place outside of our world and around it, many of his exploits traced to a time before history going on all the way until the end of time.
    People truly believed that Thor was responsible for lightning and thunder, and that Odin would guide them in battle.
    Mythology IS religion.

    What makes Christianity different from the ancient Norse pantheon is not the nature of the metaphysics, but the ability of the myths to keep up with time as science found more out. As well as certain social benefits to a single God seen as benevolent as opposed to a bunch of gods that act like people.
    An alternative path is pantheism, whereby gods are all considered aspects of one God that is outside of human reality and composes the entire universe.

    Really what it comes down to is "God of the Gaps."
    With polytheistic and animistic religions, there's no real room for the mythology once science comes in.
    With mono- and pantheism, God is more mysterious and less natural, able to shift as a concept as science teaches us more about the physical world.
    But at its roots, monotheism was not much different from polytheism. It took thousands of years to become what it now is.

    As for the Christians who continue to cling to things like Young Earth Creationism, I can't see what makes them any smarter than the Norse.
    The Norse converted to new religion with time.
    Most Christians have moved on to more modern interpretations of their own religion.
    Others cling to mythology every bit as silly as that of the ancient Norse... and yet we respect it as "religion" while calling Norse beliefs "mythology."
     
  8. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,401
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Atheist here--and faith is fine, when based on facts, not foolish nonsense believed by primitive, ignorant, superstitious people.
     
  9. JavaBlack

    JavaBlack New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    21,729
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    0
    How do you determine the difference?
    Technically superstitions were based initially on facts (it was context that was missing).
    Faith requires some area of factual ambiguity (at least in perception).
     
  10. Bow To The Robots

    Bow To The Robots Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2009
    Messages:
    25,855
    Likes Received:
    5,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well, despite my statements to the contrary, I have been called an atheist many times on this forum. None of the points you raise in the poll necessarily infuriate me. I find them quaint if not archaic, but they do not effect me one way or another--until such point that some of the faithful would try to impose them on me through my government or other means.
     
  11. Ultima

    Ultima New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    God is the fantasy of idiots.
     
  12. krusewalker

    krusewalker Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    0
    i think the premise of your poll is wrong to begin with.

    as most atheists, agnostics, secularists, humanists etc do not take christians seriously enough to inhabit the level of infuriation you attribute to them.
     
  13. venik

    venik New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    2,266
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It doesn't, but in order to have better ideas over time you must try and fail other ideas first. This requires faith. If you don't go through this process you are just getting lucky, or will never progress with your ideas.


    No they can't. I said over infinite time. I never said evil loses when good wins either. When good wins, always evil wins aswell. Once the gang of maruaders have done their bidding, either we are sent back to a time much like before they came, or we are sent forward in time to a place where we have an elite few who learned from the mistakes of the marauders. You see when people hear something good, it sticks with them. All it takes is one person for it to stick with, and the society is on it's way to the good-guys winning. At worst nobody listens, and then someone finally comes along who does listen for it. It's an additive effect, either the evil is banished, or it is not banished until it is banished. Such a simple concept seems to be hard to explain to those who don't practice faith consciously.

    Evil doesn't need to face consequences every evil act, in order for direction to head us towards good. One only needs to look at history to see what direction we're going in. We are obviously more moral than the romans before us. Ever so slightly. War in it's traditional term no longer exists.
    You seem stuck in the mindset that evil must lose for good to win. Not the case at all. Evil can win win win win win, but it's margin for winning is no longer pillaging and raping towns. Whens the last time that happened? It's because the type of people who used to do that are no longer possessed by evil. And one group of people at a time chiseled away at evil's margins over the centuries.

    How can you look at nature and not see good always comes out on top? If evil won, there would be no nature.

    I don't understand a single word or phrase of this post. I'll guess at your meanings I guess, as usual with atheists.

    Faith = ideas. Ideas are good. The more ideas you have, the more refined they will become. Faith is good because ideas are good.

    Going splat isn't an idea, and bad things require faith too. But the more faith you have the more "good" your ideas will be. The more useful they will be, the less negative they will be.

    If you had faith you'd be *less likely* to fall out of the plane in the first place, because you might have had an idea or belief that got you out of, or prevented, that situation from arising.
     
  14. JavaBlack

    JavaBlack New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2005
    Messages:
    21,729
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So a majority of the human race in every demographic is made up of idiots?
    Possible... But that doesn't mean those who don't believe in God aren't idiots.

    "Infuriate" may be astrong word. But these are certainly themes that make it difficult to talk to someone seriously on the topic.

    If you get anywhere by faith, luck was involved also. The very notion that you need faith means that the outcome was unknown.



    What happens when evil destroys everything? Then evil loses, I suppose. But so does good. For all time. Evil often does this unconsciously. After all, evil has a tendency of thinking its good.


    But when is it too little, too late?
    We may be more conscious of environmental destruction, for instance, but this does not change the fact that we destroy it at an ever increasing rate (as a function of population growth, increased demand, environmental protections seen as barrier for economic expansion, technology).
    There are a lot of things people are aware of.
    Now I can see the point of faith on this, as it might take faith to fight to save the world against very pessimistic prospects. But is faith really required? What about doing it just because it's the only chance we have, while assuming failure is the likely outcome?
    That has the same effect, but I don't think it can be called faith (and this is basically how I live my life: expecting failure, but trying to do good anyway).


    I think good is largely defined as the lack of evil. Evil causes suffering. Good is the decrease in suffering.
    If people are still being raped, can we really say good wins? What about when good no longer has incentive to protect those still most vulnerable to evil. That's a big win for evil. Is it a real win for good? Sounds more like a stalemate. Or like good selling out.


    How can you look at nature and see good? Life is sustained by violence, aggression, ruthlessness. The most ruthless survive.
    Good is basically a human reaction against nature. That's not to say nature is always evil-- we do need nature to survive and doing too much to upset nature creates evil for us.\
    But as a role model for good, nature sucks.
    Nature is all about increasing the suffering of others to better one's own chances.
     
  15. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,401
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0
    We do not agree.
    Fact - during daylight hours there is a bright light in the sky (most of the time).
    Religious superstitious nonsense:
    Some guy in a chariot rides across the sky, that is why a bright light moves across the sky.
    The bright light in the sky goes around the earth.

    Do you see the difference???
     
  16. venik

    venik New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Messages:
    2,266
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    No, it means you knew the outcome. To have faith is to know.

    Not really, at worst it can halt the progress of good, over time the spectrum of good always goes in it's favor. Because good and evil aren't entirely opposite.


    I think this is like trying to explain a jumpjet to a tribesman who can't count to 4. I'm over it. I find myself repeating 1, 2, and 3, a number of times just because that is the only thing he has any understanding of, and is often wrong anyways.
     
  17. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,401
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The majority of all humans are idiots. The actual percent of religious humans may be higher when it comes to "intentional ignorance" but for the religious and non-religious the percent of idiots is more or less equal.

    By the way, nature, good and evil, are just words. The do not do things. Good does not win or lose to evil or anything else, they are both variable concepts whose meaning varies from culture to culture.
    Nature does NOT make evolution happen it does not enforce any rules. Nature is a word used to reference the natural world, nothing more.
     
  18. Ultima

    Ultima New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Not that stupid,it was handy for collecting the tax.

    RA
     
  19. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2021
    Messages:
    3,272
    Likes Received:
    792
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I do not believe in any of the above.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2021
  20. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    8,219
    Likes Received:
    3,847
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is so weird a concept of he is the one that created us knowing what our nature would be, and that if he is all powerful, he could change it at any moment.

    Is humanity God's exercise of self loathing?
     
  21. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    8,219
    Likes Received:
    3,847
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is absolutely my number one concern over organized religion.
     

Share This Page