A question for the pro abortion people

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by logical1, May 18, 2019.

  1. StarFox

    StarFox Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you haven't "met" one but they have this crazy thing online called Youtube. Check it out you will see time and time again the word "pro abortion" come out of their own mouths.
     
  2. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    No it's about YOU and YOUR opinion on abortions why the dodges. Are you anti-abortion, I know you want others to be able to make their own decision about them, what about YOU?
     
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  3. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    So everyone is anti-abortion? Then why do we still have them happening?
     
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  4. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you were caught up with the science of things.....you would understand, abortion ends a life with a unique DNA aka "murder".
     
  5. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Murder is a term defined in our legal system and current it does not define abortions a murder. That being said it IS the taking of an innocent human life.
     
  6. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That IS quite confusing.....I have heard of murders charged in a double homicide for killing a pregnant women. What gives with the law? Is it not just?
     
  7. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Under the law that would be murder, I'm saying it's understandable but the law is the law.
     
  8. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Donor

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    The law is just because it was done against her will. No one is arguing to force abortions.
     
  9. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is human. It is NOT an individual.

    Only individuals have rights. That's why the mother has them. Individuals don't live inside other individuals. To be an individual is to be indivisible, that is, to be unable to be reduced. If the fetus is an individual, the mother isn't. And that's just absurd.

    But seriously, protect yourself from COVID-19. It is a real threat, and for older people can be very dangerous.
     
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  10. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is ridiculous....a life is a life, or isn't it?
     
  11. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the human has a unique "individual DNA.....it is an individual.
     
  12. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Donor

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    No. It is legal to have an abortion by choice, illegal for someone to do it by force.
     
  13. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In a biological sense, yes. Not in a legal, social, ethical, or moral sense. Having individual DNA is not enough to afford protections to other living things including the foods that we eat. It cannot be selectively used here as a basis for rights when it is ignored in all other situations as a qualifier.
     
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  14. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    So by your definition, killing an identical twin isn't murder, but killing a mindless ball of cells is? Science doesn't tell us what to value, but giving rights to a mindless ball of cells because of a unique set of instructions seems illogical.
     
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  15. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We keep comatose people alive even with little or no brain activity. They could be defined as a "mindless ball of cells.....why? because of their potential. They have a unique set of instructions. To value life, we must base it on that potential or unique set of instructions. Not intelligence. If we go into that area, we will come to value life according to their degree of intelligence. That would put children with Downs Syndrome with less value etc. I don't think we want to do that.
    Of course I never suggested killing an identical twin.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2020
  16. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    A comatose person already exists as a person as much as somebody who is asleep. They're just harder to wake up, basically. And if they're really destroyed to the extent they can't come back, then that's the true definition of death.

    You did suggest identical twins can be killed because your criterion was unique DNA. Theirs is the same, at least initially. I don't really believe you think that, just pointing out the unique dna thing means nothing. An army of clones may be more similar than if they had unique dna, but they'd each be a person regardless.

    Consciousness is not about intelligence. It's about a mental existence, being awake. Existing as more than a mindless biological machine, basically. We can keep a braindead person's body alive, but with no mind they're already dead as a person. A preconscious fetus has never had a mind, has never been a person, and so needs no rights.
     
  17. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It has the mechanisms in place, the design etc., and the process has begun to bring it to fruition. You might destroy that, but I'll call it murder. Your argument about identical twins is completely ludicrous. You strain at a knat and swallow a camel. Of course identical twins are each unique. I have know several and they develop unique personalities.
     
  18. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. That's why unique dna is irrelvant to the discussion of personhood.

    The mechanisms are not in place, it requires the mothers body which science cannot yet replicate. We could just as easily induce totipotency in any somatic cell and make a clone as make an artificial womb. It's the mind that matters.
     
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  19. Ritter

    Ritter Banned

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    If we assume that it is indeed a life, then why is the abortion to be regarded as murder and not as self-defense?

    I find the whole premise of the abortion debate as being an issue of "life vs non-life" as rather misleading. It drifts the question towards a blurry zone of gray uncertainty.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  20. Ritter

    Ritter Banned

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    That is a useless way of looking at it. The law can be both unjust and wrong and the law can change from x to y in only a day. If you only believe what you believe because the government wrote it down on paper, you will have a very difficult time achieving happiness in your life.

    Just as it is uniteristing to talk about abortion in terms of "life contra fetus", it is just as uninteresting to talk about is one of law. In some nations, the law says abortion is illegal, does this mean you believe abortion is wrong in Honduras, but right in America? That would be a sign of highly questionable principles.
     
  21. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't get into "moral relativity".
     
  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Because pregnancy is perfectly natural, and her body was built for the task.

    Is the woman in some sort of imminent danger of severe harm that will likely be permanently damaging to her body? Is her life reasonably threatened, with high probability?
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  23. Ritter

    Ritter Banned

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    Yes, but it does not occur out of the blue. Besides, I do not even get why it would matter whether it is natural or not since none of the two make it less valid to regard abortion as self-defense.

    Kind of.

    You could certainly argue for that being the case, yes.

    Nothing of what you asked relates to anything of what I said. Abortion is self-defense because:
    1. A woman and only she herself owns her own body. She has the right not to have her self-ownership infringed upon.

    2. A fetus lives inside the woman's body and of her body. No being has the right to live upon another person's body. Unless you believe in positive rights which I do not and unless one person voluntarily agrees to have another live inside and of them.

    3. Since the pregnancy is involuntary, the fetus is not a guest, it is a trespassers and as property owner,.you have the right to remove trespassers.

    4. Killing a trespasser or an aggressor is not murder. It is self-defense.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  24. Ritter

    Ritter Banned

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    What are you even talking about? :laughing:

    What is abortion?
    Put in the simplest and most concrete of ways; abortion is the termination of an unwanted pregnancy.

    Is the solution to illegalise abortion?
    No because the abortion in itself is not what is the problem. Abortion is the solution. Furthermore, it should be clear to anyone who understands basic economics that demanded goods and services do not vanish when the government illegalises them - It hands them over to the black market and creates an even larger problem than the initial one.

    How are unwanted pregnancies to be regulated?
    Why, on the individual level. Just like cavities are prevented by individual toothbrushing, unwanted pregnancies are regulated by individual sexual responsibility. Of course, cavities can be prevented by cutting sugar altogether and unwanted pregnancies can be prevented by never having casual sex. But, most people seek pleasure and that is fine as long as they brush their teeth and use contraceptives.

    Most human beings seek pleasure. A glass of Coke brings pleasure. Cavities do not. Sex brings pleasure and an unwanted pregnancy does not (for neither woman, what is inside her nor man who put it inside her). So, just be responsible and cautious.

    I see no reason for abstractions and overcomplications. The most Pro Life thing to do would be to advocate self-responsibility and this advocation would also be in the interest of Pro Choicers.

    You are saying you are against abortion because God says so?
    Well, then leave the power of judging the sinners to God. Do not hand over God's power to the State.
     
  25. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Unfortunately, some issues are just like that. Grey areas do exist, and people often get into trouble when they try to cram everything into binary boxes. That is the moment when false-dichotomies get created in one's mind. I could talk about it all day really, but I don't want to rant.

    On the question of the issue of "life vs non-life" when it comes to abortion specifically. I'd agree with you that that way of thinking is misleading. Because life, in truth exists at all stages of pregnancy and also before it. The sperm-cell for instance is alive. So too is the egg cell. Even common skin and hair cells are alive. So life really shouldn't be though of as the sole deciding factor in anything here, because it isn't about whether there is life or isn't there... there is... the real question is what kind of life are we talking and is it a life that ought to be protected through law at the expense of some of another person's agency in the matter. That's the real debate, and even when one understands that much the answer still isn't as clear cut as to be a simple binary choice.

    -Meta
     

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