About the Holocaust

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by stan1990, Mar 11, 2019.

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Do you agree with the thoughts expressed in this thread?

Poll closed Apr 10, 2019.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

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  3. Maybe

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  1. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yeah, Im done here.

    i dont debate Moon-landing deniers or 9-11 Deniers, so im done with the Holocaust deniers for a while.
     
  2. Andrew Jackson

    Andrew Jackson Well-Known Member

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    I hear you.

    In any event, the RW Clique (who follows me around the board looking for infractions) is going to have to expand their horizons.

    But, yeah.

    And, back in topic:

    Not many people (only a minuscule few) believe in the whole "Holocaust Denial" thing.

    But, hey, everybody is entitled to their opinion and PF has (rightfully) given them a section.

    I hope you have been well.:salute:
     
  3. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I empathize. Having been had the denier bashing hobby for the past three + decades, it can get to the point where you just gotta step back from their bullshit.

    OTOH, I refuse to let them get away unchallenged with their constant rinse and repeat. It is a sacred rule of deniers, after all.

    18. Remember that the revisionist community is peopled mainly by racists, white-supremacists, Israel-bashers, and Nazis. This means that everyone except these kinds of people will dismiss you. But don't let that stop you. Don't let your Fellini-esque, internally inconsistent, un-researched, hypocritical distortions and lies prevent you from continuing to post. After all, you're fighting for the truth (as you'd like it to be).
     
  4. JessCurious

    JessCurious Well-Known Member

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    What Holcaust? Muslims say it didn't happen - you believe them don't you?
     
  5. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't know anyone who "denies" the basics of the holocaust: the Roma, Gays, Jews, Bolsheviks etc rounded up taken to work camps where those who died were either executed or died from "natural causes". In spite of the myths concocted by the same fraudulent individuals whose holocaust horror props included fake "human skin lampshades", fake "human fat soap", shrunken heads etc, most inmates died from disease according to holocaust authority Arno Mayer.

    The debate, as I understand it, is not whether the holocaust "happened" or not but whether 6 - 11 million victims died in fictitious "steam chambers", "electrocution chambers", "gas chambers" etc in an "industrialized" manner or not.

    No one I know doubts that many inmates lived in miserable conditions & were treated cruelly, executed etc by appointed inmates, Kapos etc however, the majority of the world does not believe in industrialized execution via steam, electrocution or homicidal gas chambers(1).
    The purpose of a war time work camp is to produce products for the war effort, not torture, intentionally starve etc the workers.

    If one is to believe the ADL which conducted this survey, only about 1/2 of the world has even heard of the holocaust and of those people who have heard of the holocaust, only 1/3 believe the fictitious standard holocaust narrative: about 6 million Jews killed via homicidal gas chambers & other means in an "industrialized" manner.

    That means that 2/3 (billions of people) who know about the holocaust do not believe the inflated accounts, exaggerated casualty numbers, fictitious "homicidal steam, electrocution and/or gas chambers" etc that comprise the fraudulent, standard holocaust narrative.

    It is noteworthy that even though numerous stories feature fictitious "homicidal steam, electrocution and/or gas chambers" that allegedly killed "millions", not one single "homicidal steam, electrocution and/or gas chamber" has been found.

    If you feel you can discuss this emotionally charged topic in a civil & respectful manner without the rancor, insults, & sarcasm exemplified by most adherents to the standard holocaust narrative, I'd be glad to do so.




    (1) ”THE WORLD IS FULL OF HOLOCAUST DENIERS”
    https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...he-world-is-full-of-holocaust-deniers/370870/
     
  6. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually, Hindus are the group of people who are most likely to assert that the standard holocaust narrative is grossly inaccurate.


    ”THE WORLD IS FULL OF HOLOCAUST DENIERS”
    https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...he-world-is-full-of-holocaust-deniers/370870/

    EXCERPT “Only a third of the world's population believe the genocide has been accurately described in historical accounts.

    Some said they thought the number of people who died has been exaggerated; others said they believe it's a myth.

    - Hindus were most likely to believe that the number of Holocaust deaths has been exaggerated.

    - people younger than 65 were much more likely to say they believe that facts about the Holocaust have been distorted”CONTINUED

    In other words, far more people do not believe the myths generated by what Norman Finkelstein calls "The Holocaust Industry"
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  7. stan1990

    stan1990 Active Member

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    I agree with you that other genocides have been committed throughout history, does not diminish the horror of the Nazi's crimes. However, the selective responses of the international community are disgusting. The civil wars in Africa kill tens of millions, in the Republic of Congo and Rwanda. We still don't see the responses as in Yugslavia as example.
     
  8. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    More often than not, selective responses are predicated on the perceived economic/political power of those being exterminated.
    Moreover, the holocaust was the first multi national roundup of certain ethnicities regardless of citizenship. Couple that with the industrialization of murder and the fact that one group of targets was intellectually and economically powerful in key allied nations, and you get the prominence of the Holocaust. The jews were serious when they said - NEVER AGAIN and one result was the founding of Israel. Rather substantive differentiators from other genocides and international reactions.
     
  9. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    By "selective responses of the international community" I assumed you meant the saturation of society by the standard holocaust narrative (SHN) at the expense of other equal or greater genocides about which we have been told very little or that have even been repressed by the Colonial Powers & the Allied victors of WW 1 & WW 2.

    As I mentioned earlier, it sounds like you support a more "democratic" & comprehensive study of the innumerable genocides / mass killings / ethnic cleansing rather than the tendency of Hollywood & MSM to obsess over what has relatively recently been labeled as "The Holocaust" to the point that many voracious readers suffer from "holocaust fatigue".
     
  10. JessCurious

    JessCurious Well-Known Member

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    At the end of World War II Soviet troops, seeking to avenge Nazi atrocities in Russia, raped between one and two million German women and girls. About 80,000 subsequently
    committed suicide. It was the largest mass sexual assault in history. Many civilians were also killed. Everyone knows the Nazis were monsters so no one cared about atrocities committed
    against the German people. Netflix recently had a documentary on about it. I believe it was called "Savage Peace."
     
  11. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Did you know that only 5% - 10% of the German people were members of the National Socialist (Nazi) party including Nazis of Jewish & Slavic descent(1) so the Soviet army of rapists were simply rapists, not avengers.

    The primary reason that fighting was more vicious on the Eastern Front is that Stalin / the Soviets refused to sign the Geneva convention so the Soviets were at least equally vicious.

    Stalin's order #270 regarded captured prisoners as traitors to be destroyed by any means & even denied food rations to the families of Soviet soldiers who were taken prisoners. Millions of Soviet civilians, therefore, died of starvation simply because their family member had been captured.




    1. "List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent"
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nazis_of_non-Germanic_descent

      EXCERPT "List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent, including notable people in Nazi German service, such as Schutzstaffel members, who were of non-Germanic descent. Notably, there were several high-ranking Nazis of Jewish descent. There were also many of Slavic descent."CONTINUED
     
  12. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [

    Sorry but the Russians were extremely nasty AVENGERS taking out the deaths of 3 million of their prisoners of war and 22 million+ of their citizens. They treated the german people like they were all nazi scum since the german people ENABLED those murderous racist lowlifes to perpetrate their monstrous crimes. Nietzsche was right is seems.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
  13. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Stalin was slaughtering his own people by the millions before the Nazis even set foot in Russia. Remember Genrikh Yagoda &
    Leonid Reichman ?(1)
    As per his Order #270, Stalin ordered the destruction and / or execution of any & all Soviet POWs & denial of food rations to their families causing their death by starvation.

    Since Stalin refused to sign the Geneva convention, many Russian "civilians" were armed & trained Partisan - soldiers & no one outside of the Soviet propaganda mill claims that the Nazis massacred "22 Million+ citizens

    Re:
    Source, please.


    (1) "Stalin's Jews"
    "We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish"

    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

    EXCERPT "And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people.CONTINUED
     
  14. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  15. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I suppose most people would report you for your fatuous personal attacks & blatant flame bait but I would rather leave them for other readers to see another example of your intellectually limited Hasbara hysteria.

    1. You're lying when you suggest that I have any affinity for Nazism or other forms of totalitarianism which I abhor.
    I dare you to show any Post I have written that expresses any fondness for Nazism or remain a proven liar.

    2. Re:
    Yet another meaningless, illiterate slur with absolutely no basis in fact.
    Again, I dare you to show any Post I have written in which I have expressed the importance of "blood", as in blood purity.
    Any other combat veteran will tell you that the only thing important abut blood is its type (A+, A-, etc) and that is the only way in which blood is important to me.

    3. Your Wikipedia reference does little to clarify the accurate number of Russian casualties that are impossible to attribute to WW 2 because Stalin began executing horrific numbers of people before WW 2 began, during WW 2 and continued to do so long after WW 2 was officially over.(1)
    Since Stalin was killing his own people including the families of Russian POWs during WW 2, it is simply inaccurate to attribute the deaths of all Russians who died during the WW 2 period to the diverse German military.

    I say "diverse German military" because the Wehrmacht, Waffen SS etc were comprised of varied religious groups, nationalities & ethnic groups including 2 million Jews, Slavs, Asians, Blacks, Arabs etc:

    EXCERPTS " I ask those historians who still believe that Hitler and the Nazis were “white supremacists”: how do you account for the incredible degree of non-German and ethnic minority (i.e., 150,000 Jews and Jewish Mischlinge) collaboration during World War II? Again, some two million non-Germans helped the Nazis.

    Even after Stalingrad; Spaniards, Slavs, Franks, and tens of- thousands of other non-Germans continued to fight for the Nazis on a volunteer basis. Frenchmen and Arab volunteers gave their lives in the final fight for the capital of Berlin in 1945. Hitler continued to allow thousands of Jewish men to serve, and many did so with incredible tenacity and valor."CONTINUED(2)





    (1) "Excess mortality in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin
    EXCERPTS "Estimates of the number of deaths attributable to Joseph Stalin vary widely."CONTINUED


    (2) "Adolf Hitler’s Armed Forces: A Triumph for Diversity?"
    https://www.inconvenienthistory.com/1/3/3102
     
  16. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I can't remember the specifics, but there was a Caesar themed special on at a local restaurant a few months back, and I was kind of astounded. Do these people know of Caesar's history? Of some of the things he did? He razed cities to the ground, slaughtered in cold blood every man, woman and child. He was not in any way a nice guy.

    I feel like the historical separation makes people not really care so much about atrocities done centuries ago.

    The Holocaust happened, it was absolutely disgusting and disastrous, but I can't help but feel a lot of other genocides and other deplorable acts aren't put on an equal footing.

    A big issue is technology. Hitler used advanced industrial methods to kill millions. This is an utter disgrace. He will rot in Hell if there is one. But does this make him worse than someone like Genghis Khan? Just because he had the advantage of technology? I'm unsure, I can see good points both ways.

    The treatment of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc is where I'm mainly angry. These leaders' victims were many in number greater than Hitlers, some even in barbarism. I think of those proud Ukranian farmers - "Kulaks" as Stalin called them - who burned their annual grain harvest knowing it would result in their certain death rather than hand 85% of it over to Stalin. I think of those proud Cambodian men who refused to acquiesce to Pol Pot and would rather be shot into a mass grave. I think of the British using violation of Polish neutrality as a pretext for war with Germany then GIFTING the Poles to 50 years of Brutal murder and oppression under Stalin and subsequent Soviets...

    ...and I find these regimes to max out the horror scale. There is no higher level. Once you reach a certain point there is a distinction without a difference.

    We really ought to treat Communists the same way we treat Fascists.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
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  17. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry, you keep posting bullshit revisionist history in addition to all the other well worn tactics like posting specious links and anecdotal evidence to support your gross generalizations liberally sprinkled with whataboutery, logical fallacies and tangential justifications, so I'm sure its understandable to most, if I attribute the usual motivations to a sum of your consistent behavior and content focus.

    AS for Hitler's triumph of diversity, of course you mean except for Jews, Romani, Slavs,and Poles that is? You know the subhumans hitler was seriously interested in enslaving and exterminating. (oh and to be absolutely clear, slavs include those vengeful russians you are harping about).
     
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  18. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In other words, you cannot show where I have ever expressed support for Nazism or any other form of totalitarianism and have yet to refute even one of the inconvenient facts that refute the myths with which you have been indoctrinated.

    All you've got is awkwardly expressed slurs, unsupported verbiage, slander & lies.

    Knowledge of WW 2's realities has changed significantly since the heady days of fake "human soap", fake "Human skin lampshades", fake "homicidal steam, electrocution & gas chambers"

    In other words the old, outdated Allied propaganda narrative on which you've been weaned has been proven false and I am trying to view WW 2's grisly history factually & with detached objectivity.

    Hitler's armies did include full Jews, Slavs, Asians, Arabs, and various nationalities I've listed above in Post.
    If Hitler etc were committed to exterminating all Jews, why did he arm, train and deploy 150,000 of them and honor many with Germany's highest awards?

    EXCERPTS " I ask those historians who still believe that Hitler and the Nazis were “white supremacists”: how do you account for the incredible degree of non-German and ethnic minority (i.e., 150,000 Jews and JewishMischlinge) collaboration during World War II? Again, some two million non-Germans helped the Nazis.

    Even after Stalingrad; Spaniards, Slavs, Franks, and tens of- thousands of other non-Germans continued to fight for the Nazis on a volunteer basis. Frenchmen and Arab volunteers gave their lives in the final fight for the capital of Berlin in 1945. Hitler continued to allow thousands of Jewish men to serve, and many did so with incredible tenacity and valor."CONTINUED(1)

    Why were there Jews who were members of the Nazi party?(2)

    Everything I've written is supported by numerous respected historians in sources I have already listed that you constantly evade.

    I can support my facts, why can't you


    (1) "Adolf Hitler’s Armed Forces: A Triumph for Diversity?"
    https://www.inconvenienthistory.com/1/3/3102


    (2) "List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nazis_of_non-Germanic_descent

    EXCERPT "Notably, there were several high-ranking Nazis of Jewish descent."CONTINUED
     
  19. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    revi
    1. It seems you are unaware of basic semantic analysis methods called implication and inference. The tone, tenor and perspective of the content you repeatedly post REGARDLESS of it being repeatedly debunked.

    2. That directly implies you are fixated on bullshit revisionism that defends nazi actions while accusing others of equally or greater heinous crimes.
    38
    3. You infer your definition of "jew" is completely in line with the nuremburg laws, which implies you actually believe the racial bullshit that the nazi's tried to foist upon the world.

    4. You used to post holocaust denial bullshit from the usual suspects until you realized there are too many around here who actually know more about it than you.

    5. You actively support other revisionist postings that spout the usual nonsense from quack "academics" and wholly unqualified clowns.


    So, your specious denials of who and what you are, don't carry much weight with any of us familiar with your posting history.

    As for the above post:

    I notice you insist on repeating that there were 150,000 jews in the german army under the nazis. Oh and those decorated jews? Yep German Jews fought proudly for Germany in WW1 and was awarded an iron cross for his service. OTOH, he also got arrested in 1938 by the nazis for insisting on service in a restaurant that refused to serve jews.


    And just to be clear.
    Jewish descent does not make one a jew. I am a 2nd order mischling and I ain't no jew. Nuremburg definitions seem to be the foundation of your pernicious bullshit apologism.
     
  20. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "You..., You..., You...

    As usual, the bulk of your slanderous tantrum is no more than another fact free, off-topic personal attack.

    As much as you may be obsessed with me, I am not the topic of this thread.

    Throughout this thread, I have cited numerous facts that make the standard holocaust narrative impossible. The fact that thousands of Jews served in Hitler's military etc is just one of those facts you cannot refute.

    Yes, about 100,000 Jews served in Germany's WW 1 military and Hitler chose to honor many of those Jewish WW 1 Veterans who were already in Palestine(1) because of the Haavara Agreement drawn up by the German Zionist Federation & Germany's National Socialists (Nazis).
    It is noteworthy that few things did more at the time to establish a Jewish colony in Palestine than the jointly crafted, Zionist - Nazi Haavara Agreement.

    Germany's Zionists, when they cooperated with the Nazis, stressed a desire to maintain Jewish "racial purity" as much as the most strident Nazis sought to preserve their own brand of racial purity.

    It was well respected historian Bryan Rigg whose research revealed that 150,000 full Jews & "Mischlings" served in Hitler's WW 2 military and security forces as Ghetto police and concentration camp guards (kapos)(2).

    So, this is just one fact I've cited throughout this thread that prove that the standard holocaust narrative with which many have been indoctrinated cannot be true & complete.
    Unlike the murderous machinations of Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao etc, there are simply too many contradictions, inconsistencies & physical impossibilities in the standard holocaust narrative for it to be true.

    If you are still incapable of composing a coherent, honest & on-topic rebuttal, don't expose your intellectual shortcomings with yet another hysterical, fact free & off-topic tantrum.




    (1) "When Hitler Honored Jewish Soldiers"
    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.602868

    EXCERPT "The Nazi regime conferred honors on many of the 100,000 Jews who fought in the German army in the Great War, even on some who had already escaped to Palestine."CONTINUED


    (2) “Hitler’s Jewish Army”
    http://counterpsyops.com/2013/02/14/...-hitlers-army/

    EXCERPT “Thousands of men of Jewish descent and hundreds of what the Nazis called ‘full Jews’ served in the German military with Adolf Hitler’s knowledge and approval.

    In approximately 20 cases, Jewish soldiers in the Nazi army were awarded(*)Germany’s highest military honor, the Knight’s Cross.
    So what happens to the claim that Hitler sought to exterminate all Jews, when he allowed some of them to join in his struggle against Bolshevism and International finance capitalism?

    If the Jews were permitted to serve in Hitler’s armed forces then there could not have been a Holocaust.”CONTINUED
     
  21. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You keep posting this bullshit from the usual sources with holocaust denial built in.

    You claim a position that you do not actually occupy and defend yourself when called out and then when I explain with FACTS about why I concluded you are full of bullshit and a nazi apologist at the very least, you pull out the "huff" and then try to "puff" more revisionist bullshit.

    For instance the Great War was WW1, but the Haaretz headline seems to support your specious bullshit about jews fighting for hitler and germany, as some sort of twisted evidence that Addie and the gang weren't determined to exterminate subhumans for the glory of the thousand year reich.



    Your tactics are textbook. The crap you post is nothing new to those of us who are well versed in the evolution of holocaust denial and nazi "rehabilitation" efforts. I've been actively opposed to revisionists since Zundel and Samizdat Publishing arrived on the local scene shovelling his bullshit. That was back in '84.
     
  22. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Those who promote revisionist bullshit know its a lie and nothing more than a tool to further their bigotry and demonize jews. Its an important method of continuing public dialogue of their ideology and underlying bigotry from a very thinly veiled "academic/scientific" perspective.

    My paternal german jewish grandfather was damn proud of his military service and the iron cross he earned in WW1, despite losing and the resultant financial rape of germany. His outrage about the nazi's notwithstanding. In fact, one of his army buddies was the chief of police who got him out of jail and on a train a few days before kristallknacht.
     
  23. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    However, as early as 1935, Propaganda Minister Goebbels announced that “it is forbidden to list the names of fallen Jews on memorials for the fallen of the world war,”

    On June 22, 1942, the Gestapo arrived at the offices of the Jewish Veterans Reich Association in Kantstrasse and arrested all the employees and staff. They too were slaughtered.


    https://www.jewishpress.com/section...-military-contribution-to-germany/2017/02/23/
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019
  24. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Its not like the facts matter to the ideologically and emotionally dedicated. You'll be at the debunking ad infinitum because rinse and repeat is a central tactic.

    The last step of the How to be a revisionist "scholar" is after all,

    18. Remember that the revisionist community is peopled mainly by racists, white-supremacists, Israel-bashers, and Nazis. This means that everyone except these kinds of people will dismiss you. But don't let that stop you. Don't let your Fellini-esque, internally inconsistent, un-researched, hypocritical distortions and lies prevent you from continuing to post. After all, you're fighting for the truth (as you'd like it to be).
     
  25. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "ANOTHER FACT FREE, INSULTING TANTRUM"


    "You..., You..., You..., again & again

    Still, you can't refute a single fact I've both written & supported but devote post after post distorting my views, hurling puerile insults, slandering better educated individuals and employing any evasive technique to avoid facing facts.

    I've repeatedly dared you to address just one of the facts I've written & supported but you're stuck with only cowardly personal attacks.

    Man up & face facts.
     

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