What's up, Koko? Why you're constantly posting that false, shitty Neo-Nazi propaganda stuff? You can deny history, but you can't avoid it.
hitler would never have gone in had the poles not slaughtered over 50,000 noncombatant innocent german civilians, men women and children. Im truly sorry that your consider material facts, and the survivors admissions of lying about the holocaust Neo-Nazi propaganda, but it is what it is, the hard evidence does not support a J-W as victim holocaust, it does however PROVE beyond a shadow of doubt the germans are the victims holocaust, to this very day.
As you must know by now, a debate forum is a two-way exchange so before we continue with what looks like a one sided exercise you are proposing I would like you to explain how the standard holocaust narrative could be true based on the facts I posted in my Post # 1473. How could there have been a genocidal agenda (aka "Final Solution") when no such order existed or exists(1)? Why is there no mention of a genocidal agenda in any of the intercepted German Radio transmissions(2) or the most credible, 1946 Red Cross inspection report(3)? My answer to your question about Jews having to wear a yellow star as a badge remains the same; some did and some did not. I know that many Jews were forced to wear yellow stars but I sincerely doubt that the Jews who served in Hitler's military or Jews who were Nazi party members wore them. Finally, I have noted earlier in this thread that Wikipedia is heavily influenced by paid and trained Zionist propagandists(6), (7), ( and is therefore extremely biased in favor of promulgating the standard holocaust narrative. For example, footnote #5 was only recently edited from: "Notably, there were several high-ranking Nazis of Jewish descent." to: "Notably, there were several high-ranking Nazis of partial Jewish descent." (1)“To the present day a written order by Hitler regarding the destruction of the European Jewish community has not been found, and, in all probability, this order was never given.” - Walter Laqueur, Was niemand wissen wollte: Die Unterdruckung der Nachrichten uber Hitlers Endlösung (What Nobody Wanted to Know: The Suppression of News About Hitler’s “Final Solution”), (Berlin-Vienna, 1981), p.190 (2). “THE HOLOCAUST NARRATIVE” https://archive.org/stream/BreakingTheSpell_48/BreakingTheSpell-Kollerstrom_djvu.txt EXCERPT “In 1941, British Intelligence analysts cracked the German “Enigma” code. This undermined the German war effort—but also threw new light on day-by-day events in the Nazi concentration camp system. Between January 1942 and January 1943, encrypted radio communications between those camps and the Berlin headquarters were intercepted and decrypted. Oddly enough, historians have largely ignored the information furnished in these intercepts relating to “arrivals,” “departures,” recorded deaths and other events at these camps.The only reasonable explanation is that the intercepted data contra-dicts, even refutes, the orthodox “Holocaust” narrative. The information does not expose a program of mass murder and racial genocide. Quite the opposite: it reveals that the Germans were determined, desperate even, to reduce the death rate in their work camps, which was caused by catastrophic typhus epidemics.”CONTINUED (3). "International Red Cross Report Confirms the Holocaust of Six Million Jews is a Hoax" http://www.renegadetribune.com/inte...ort-confirms-holocaust-six-million-jews-hoax/ EXCERPT “In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatsoever of ‘gas chambers’. The original 1946 edition did not even talk of ‘extermination’ or ‘death camps’ but after the emotional impact of the Nuremberg trials the Red Cross felt compelled to introduce into the expanded 1948 Report several, very cursory references to ‘death camps’ (Vol. 1 p. 641) and ‘extermination camps’ (Vol. I p. 645). However, no means of ‘extermination’ is indicated. In all its 1,600 pages the three-volume Report does not even mention such a thing as a ‘gas chamber’. It acknowledges that Jews, like many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but’ its complete silence on the subject of ’gassings’ is ample refutation of the ‘Holocaust’ legend.”CONTINUED (4). “Hitler’s Jewish Army” http://counterpsyops.com/2013/02/14/...-hitlers-army/ EXCERPT “Thousands of men of Jewish descent and hundreds of what the Nazis called ‘full Jews’ served in the German military with Adolf Hitler’s knowledge and approval. In approximately 20 cases, Jewish soldiers in the Nazi army were awarded(*)Germany’s highest military honor, the Knight’s Cross. Jews also served in the Nazi police and security forces as ghetto police(Ordnungdienst)(*)and concentration camp guards(*)(kapos). So what happens to the claim that Hitler sought to exterminate all Jews, when he allowed some of them to join in his struggle against Bolshevism and International finance capitalism? “If the Jews were permitted to serve in Hitler’s armed forces then there could not have been a Holocaust.”CONTINUED (5) "List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nazis_of_non-Germanic_descent EXCERPT "Notably, there were several high-ranking Nazis of partial Jewish descent."CONTINUED (6). "Course: Zionist Editing on Wikipedia" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t52LB2fYhoY (7) "The right's latest weapon: 'Zionist editing' on Wikipedia" Haaretz" https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2010/08/the-rights-latest-weapon-zionist-editing-on-wikipedia-haaretz.html EXCERPT"Now the Yesha Council of settlements and another right-wing group, Israel Sheli, are embarking on a Wikipedia battle: Zionist editing on the Web-based encyclopedia. The course was designed to teach how to register for, contribute to and edit for Wikipedia."CONTINUED ( "Zionist Control of WikiPedia" http://www.ascertainthetruth.com/at...ls-the-media/429-zionist-control-of-wikipedia
There are more sources ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Walter_Stahlecker The number beneath the coffins shows how many Jews already was murdered. The region with 963 Jews killed is called JUDENFREI. JUDENFREI means, there are no more Jews there.
A map that could have been drawn by anyone and a reference to the overwhelmingly bias Wikipedia that can be edited by anyone is nowhere as credible as intercepted, secret German radio transmissions(1) and the first & impartial 1946 Red Cross report(2) . In neither of these comprehensive documents is there any reference to a genocidal agenda or anything resembling a "Final Solution". That is not to say that many innocent people were rounded up along with genuine common criminals and sent to work camps where many died of disease or natural causes and some were executed but the German run work camps paled in comparison to Eisenhower's real death camps and Stalin's gulags. Since you have chosen to focus only on the Jewish fatalities of WW 2, it seems only fair to mention just a few of the innumerable Jewish collaborators(3) without whose help the incarceration of Jews would not have been possible. (1) “THE HOLOCAUST NARRATIVE” https://archive.org/stream/BreakingTheSpell_48/BreakingTheSpell-Kollerstrom_djvu.txt EXCERPT “In 1941, British Intelligence analysts cracked the German “Enigma” code. This undermined the German war effort—but also threw new light on day-by-day events in the Nazi concentration camp system. Between January 1942 and January 1943, encrypted radio communications between those camps and the Berlin headquarters were intercepted and decrypted. Oddly enough, historians have largely ignored the information furnished in these intercepts relating to “arrivals,” “departures,” recorded deaths and other events at these camps.The only reasonable explanation is that the intercepted data contra-dicts, even refutes, the orthodox “Holocaust” narrative. The information does not expose a program of mass murder and racial genocide. Quite the opposite: it reveals that the Germans were determined, desperate even, to reduce the death rate in their work camps, which was caused by catastrophic typhus epidemics.”CONTINUED (2). "International Red Cross Report Confirms the Holocaust of Six Million Jews is a Hoax" http://www.renegadetribune.com/inte...ort-confirms-holocaust-six-million-jews-hoax/ EXCERPT “In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatsoever of ‘gas chambers’. The original 1946 edition did not even talk of ‘extermination’ or ‘death camps’ but after the emotional impact of the Nuremberg trials the Red Cross felt compelled to introduce into the expanded 1948 Report several, very cursory references to ‘death camps’ (Vol. 1 p. 641) and ‘extermination camps’ (Vol. I p. 645). However, no means of ‘extermination’ is indicated. In all its 1,600 pages the three-volume Report does not even mention such a thing as a ‘gas chamber’. It acknowledges that Jews, like many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but’ its complete silence on the subject of ’gassings’ is ample refutation of the ‘Holocaust’ legend.”CONTINUED (3) "Top 10 Nazi Collaborators Who Were Jews" https://listverse.com/2017/01/03/top-10-nazi-collaborators-who-were-jews/ EXCERPT "When we think of the Holocaust, we often imagine that the Germans were solely responsible for the identification and deportation of Jews and others to the death camps. The truth, however, is that a number of Jews worked under the Nazis and helped to identify thousands of their fellow men for deportation to the death camps. The Nazi collaborators on this list either volunteered to help the Nazis or were forced to trade the lives of hundreds or thousands of their fellow Jews for their own lives and the lives of their families. Greed, self-preservation, and hate are the main reasons for the actions these individuals took." CONTINUED
What I was actually trying to do was steelman your arguments so we had common ground and could spend our time debating the controversy. Right lets stick do dealing in facts if you want. Both of these are speculation not fact. Where can we see the intercepted German radio communications. From your source, As Rigg fully documents for the first time, a great many of these men did not even consider themselves Jewish and had embraced the military as a way of life and as devoted patriots eager to serve a revived German nation. In turn, they had been embraced by the Wehrmacht, which prior to Hitler had given little thought to the “race” of these men but which was now forced to look deeply into the ancestry of its soldiers. The process of investigation and removal, however, was marred by a highly inconsistent application of Nazi law. Numerous “exemptions” were made in order to allow a soldier to stay within the ranks or to spare a soldier’s parent, spouse, or other relative from incarceration or far worse. (Hitler’s own signature can be found on many of these “exemption” orders.) But as the war dragged on, Nazi politics came to trump military logic, even in the face of the Wehrmacht’s growing manpower needs, closing legal loopholes and making it virtually impossible for these soldiers to escape the fate of millions of other victims of the Third Reich. So yes Jews served but they required exemptions even signed by Hitler himself but as the war went on this was stopped. Can we agree all Jews were forced to wear the yellow star except those in the military who required exemptions which according to your source stooped and they faced the same fate as the other Jews. I agree about Wiki but that does not mean all of it is wrong some facts cannot be made up.
HC deniers only accept historical documents in their favor. All others they call fakes. We both are aware of this. Try it out. Try manipulating a historical Wiki article with Nazi propaganda bullshit. It won't work. Many have already failed on this. The term "Final Solution" is pretty unsuspicious and can be interpreted in various ways. Therefore it appears in many NS-documents. The Nazis tried to describe their barbarism with decent words so that they could endure their own malice. Don't forget that they came from a culture that rejects such acts. Jewish collaborators had a strong will to survive. Participation was the only way for cowardly Jews who didn't want to fight the Nazis. The focus on Jews is the topic of this thread. Jews were the main victims of the Holocaust. Discussing the martyrdom of Jews in the Holocaust can help raise people's awareness of racial hatred and fascism.
Speculation we need a copies of the communications no link given. Again opinion piece with no link given to the source report. Three were killed by the Nazis, three by the Jews themselves, two committed suicide because they could not live with themselves and two converted to Christianity to avoid execution. But really what is the point, we know there are evil Jews just as there is evil people in every race.
Re: I believe that we are in exact agreement in my contention that no single race, religious, or ethnic group is exclusively good or evil. Am I right in that assessment? It is for that reason that I reject today's fraudulent holocaust narrative & residual Allied propaganda that relentlessly demonizes only the stereotypically cruel and evil Germans and exclusively casts all Jews as virtuous & pitiful victims incapable of a single evil deed. The near omnipotent Holocaust Industry-Lobby that has profited enormously from its fraudulent narrative is relentless in pressuring international, national and local governments to brainwash students into believing that one and only one grossly distorted narrative to the exclusion of history's numerous other mass tragedies. It's bad enough that today's students are having outright lies poured into their heads about "6 million Jews murdered", "homicidal gas chambers" etc but delivering the subliminal message that only the Germans were barbarous murders while the virtuous Jews are deserving of countless $ Billions, endless pity and all of Palestine is an inexcusable wrong. Re: The sources I posted are entirely credible. Do you really expect me or anyone else to post a translation of every intercepted German radio transmission sent during WW2? I've read the 1946 Red Cross report and the assessment of it that I submitted is accurate. You're welcome to read it yourself. There is no mention of a genocidal agenda, "gas chamber", "Conveyor Belt of Death" (1) or any of the innumerable fictions found in holocaustian mythology. Why? (1) "Auschwitz Electrical Conveyor belt of Death" https://disjecta.wordpress.com/2018/01/26/auschwitz-electrical-conveyor-belt-of-death/ EXCERPT "It’s a little known fact that running alongside the scientifically implausible gas chambers at Auschwitz ran the electrified conveyor belts of death. These industrialised slaughter belts, we can assume took the passive cargo directly from the “cattle cars” and electrocuted the hapless victims without struggle then disposed of the evidence in Nazi furnaces. One can only guess at the “special devices” for killing children. Somehow visions of Willy Wonka’s Chocolate/extermination factory spring to mind."CONTINUED
Certainly. Yes you insisted on facts, you made a point of it, now in order to see facts we need the original report, YOU were the one who wanted to keep to the facts. I have already shown that one of your sources when we actually investigated what was said contradicted its own headline!
Had a further look around and found this from an independent fact checking charity, Red Cross documents do not support the false claim that far fewer than six million Jews were murdered during the Holocaust. An anti-Semitic viral article posted on Facebook claimed that Red Cross documentation showed 271,000 people died in Nazi concentration camps, rather than the widely accepted figure of around six million. As “evidence”, the article includes a 1979 document which it claims lists the true concentration camp death toll. In fact the documentation from 1979 shows the number of death certificates that had been issued for prisoners in 13 Nazi concentration camps. The number of death certificates represents only a fraction of the total death toll for various reasons. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) told us: “The ICRC accepts the Holocaust as fact and does not dispute in any way the official number of lives that were lost.” https://fullfact.org/online/holocaust-death-toll/
I'm not quite clear as to what you expect when you say "...you insisted on facts..." when you ask for thousands of pages of documents. Neither I nor anyone else on this forum could or would reproduce all of the intercepted, German WW2 radio transmissions any more than it can be proven that about 6 million Jews were murdered during WW 2. What I've presented is a historian's report on the content of those radio transmissions: “THE HOLOCAUST NARRATIVE” by Nicholas Kollerstrom https://archive.org/stream/BreakingTheSpell_48/BreakingTheSpell-Kollerstrom_djvu.txt EXCERPT “In 1941, British Intelligence analysts cracked the German “Enigma” code. This undermined the German war effort—but also threw new light on day-by-day events in the Nazi concentration camp system. Between January 1942 and January 1943, encrypted radio communications between those camps and the Berlin headquarters were intercepted and decrypted. Oddly enough, historians have largely ignored the information furnished in these intercepts relating to “arrivals,” “departures,” recorded deaths and other events at these camps.The only reasonable explanation is that the intercepted data contra-dicts, even refutes, the orthodox “Holocaust” narrative. The information does not expose a program of mass murder and racial genocide. Quite the opposite: it reveals that the Germans were determined, desperate even, to reduce the death rate in their work camps, which was caused by catastrophic typhus epidemics.”CONTINUED If you have any evidence that German radio transmissions did discuss a program of mass murder and racial genocide, please present it. Regarding the 2nd source I presented: "International Red Cross Report Confirms the Holocaust of Six Million Jews is a Hoax" http://www.renegadetribune.com/inte...ort-confirms-holocaust-six-million-jews-hoax/ EXCERPT “In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatsoever of ‘gas chambers’. The original 1946 edition did not even talk of ‘extermination’ or ‘death camps’ but after the emotional impact of the Nuremberg trials the Red Cross felt compelled to introduce into the expanded 1948 Report several, very cursory references to ‘death camps’ (Vol. 1 p. 641) and ‘extermination camps’ (Vol. I p. 645). However, no means of ‘extermination’ is indicated. In all its 1,600 pages the three-volume Report does not even mention such a thing as a ‘gas chamber’. It acknowledges that Jews, like many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but’ its complete silence on the subject of ’gassings’ is ample refutation of the ‘Holocaust’ legend.”CONTINUED I made no mention of the number of casualties from the German run camps because I don't think that anyone knows the exact number. My only assertion is that the 1946 Red Cross report, too makes no mention of a genocidal agenda, homicidal gas chambers and other fraudulent claims made by the Holocaust Industry-Lobby. I don't regard subsequent Red Cross reports as credible due to the overwhelming political pressure exerted on the Red Cross resulting from the Nuremberg "trials", the influential Holocaust Industry-Lobby and well entrenched Allied propagandists. You don't really think that only the "other" side used propaganda to deceive its citizens, do you? If you have any information that the 1946 Red Cross did mention a genocidal agenda of homicidal gas chambers, please present it. Finally, what is your overall purpose for contributing to this thread? In other words, what is your premise?
Evidence for the Holocaust is not only based on radio transmissions. There are many Nazi documents and testimonies of eyewitnesses (perpetrators and victims alike) that prove the Holocaust just as it's taught in school textbooks.
you have been shown several times that the the holocaust testimonies are all lies. J-W: "I KNOW BUT IN MY IMAGINATION IT WAS TRUE"
I've never heard of that. Only unproven claims from Holocaust deniers. I assume there actually are a few lies. But who managed to reveal all testimonies as lies? That must have been an inhuman achievement.
Why did you quote a Right-Wing Extremist blog? The story "ICRC and the Holocaust" can be found directly on the ICRC website. https://www.icrc.org/en/document/icrc-wwii-holocaust
I'm afraid that you misunderstand the contents of WW 2's intercepted German radio transmissions. Their contents do not support the holocaust myths in that there is no mention in them of a genocidal agenda, homicidal gas chambers, mass gassings or mass executions of any kind. They do mention individual executions by hanging and shooting but, as they relate to the holocaust, they mainly focus on the transportation of people to and from the different work camps and similar mundane details. Additionally, there are no Nazi documents that confirm the mass murder of anyone and, as I've shown numerous times, there is no order in any form from Hitler that calls for the destruction of Europe's Jews or any other group. French historian Germain Tillion and Jewish historian Samuel Gringauz state that: "....former camp inmates who lie are, in fact, very much more numerous than people generally suppose, and a subject like that of the concentration camp world -- well designed, alas, to stimulate sado-masochistic imaginations -- offered them an exceptional field of action. We have known numerous mentally damaged persons, half-swindlers and half fools, who exploited an imaginary deportation. We have known others of them -- authentic deportees -- whose sick minds strove to even go beyond the monstrosities that they had seen or that people said happened to them. Jewish historian Samuel Gringauz, who was himself interned in the ghetto of Kaunas (Lithuania) during the war, criticized what he called the "hyperhistorical" nature of most Jewish "survivor testimony." He wrote that "most of the memoirs and reports are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies." (1) Gena Turgel claims that she survived the gas chambers and MSM actually prints such rubbish(2). Not to be outdone, Moshe Peer claims to have survived six gassings at Bergen-Belsen(3). Do you actually believe these outrageous lies that comprise the bulk of holocaust lore, pollute school textbooks and are used to deceive gullible individuals? Finally, I don't know what's in school textbooks today but I do know that the Holocaust Industry-Lobby is pressuring politicians to have American schools brainwash American children into believing holocaust mythology(4) Fortunately, there are still plenty of school children who have the critical literacy skills to think for themselves(5). Do you? (1) "The Nuremberg Trials and the Holocaust" https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p167_Webera.html Dubious testimony (2) "Auschwitz Survivor Gena Turgel Walked Out of Gas Chamber Alive" https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...a-turgel-walked-out-gas-chamber-alive-n293496 (3) "Bergen-Belsen gas chamber?" https://www.scrapbookpages.com/BergenBelsen/BergenBelsen04.html (4) "On Remembrance Day, US House overwhelmingly passes Holocaust education bill" https://www.timesofisrael.com/on-re...erwhelmingly-passes-holocaust-education-bill/ (5) "SHOCK: District’s ‘critical thinking’ assignment led at least 50 students to conclude Holocaust never occurred" http://eagnews.org/shock-districts-...tudents-to-conclude-holocaust-never-occurred/ RIALTO, Calif. – An eighth-grade English assignment that was meant to develop students’ critical thinking skills has, instead, created some 50 new Holocaust deniers. In May, Rialto Unified School District leaders came under intense criticism after it was revealed the district’s roughly 2,000 eighth-grade students were given an in-class essay assignment in which they were asked to consider if the Holocaust was “an actual historical event” or if it might have been “a propaganda tool that was used for political and monetary gain.” One student declared there was no way the Holocaust occurred because the Nazis “would have had to have killed 187 people an hour in order to kill 6 million people. Therefore it is impossible.” Another flatly asserted that the Holocaust is “a profitable hoax made by the Jews to obtain land, money and power.” One student concluded: “With the evidence that was given to me, it clearly was obvious” that the Holocaust never occurred “and I wouldn’t know why anyone would think otherwise.” Several students based their skepticism on arguments put forth by discredited Holocaust denier Fred A. Leuchter, who has argued the Nazis never used gas chambers to kill Jews. One student wrote that if the Nazis “would have even experimented these so called gas chambers the Nazis would have died also, so I do not believe in gas chambers.” Another made a similar argument: “if gassing would have occurred everyone (nearby) would have died, because the floors had cracks in the floor and holes in the wall.” Still another asserted “there is no significant cyanide traces in any of the alleged gas chambers. So any open minded person can easily be persuaded to believe that the gassings were a Hoax.” Some students even used the “evidence” provided by their teachers to declare that “The Diary of Anne Frank” – the first-hand account of Nazi atrocities that students had been assigned to read earlier – was a fraud."CONTINUED
The hard material evidence that you continue to ignore reveals it perfectly. Yes, when the material evidence reveals something is a lie, it applies to any and everyone making the false claims.
Because it was shorter than other sources and contained essentially the same facts as: A Factual Appraisal Of The 'Holocaust' By The Red Cross The Jews And The Concentration Camps:No Evidence Of Genocide http://www.polskawalczaca.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=18054 EXCERPT "Clearly, the German authorities were at pains to relieve the dire situation as far as they were able. The Red Cross are quite explicit in stating that food supplies ceased at this time due to the Allied bombing of German transportation, and in the interests of interned Jews they had protested on March 15th, 1944 against "the barbarous aerial warfare of the Allies" (Inter Arma Caritas, p. 7. By October 2nd, 1944, the ICRC warned the German Foreign Office of the impending collapse of the German transportation system, declaring that starvation conditions for people throughout Germany were becoming inevitable. In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews. In all its 1,600 pages the Report does not even mention such a thing as a gas chamber. It admits that Jews, like many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but its complete silence on the subject of planned extermination is ample refutation of the Six Million legend."CONTINUED
That's wrong. Some can be found here: https://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/document/document.htm But why do I know that you won't accept any of this?
Do you have a concrete example regarding the Holocaust? Where is the "material evidence" proving the non-existence of homicidal gas chambers?
An excerpt from your: "A Teacher's Guide to the Holocaust" reads: "All of the documents on this Web page were retrieved from the archives of Shamash: The Jewish Internet Consortium." If you don't believe Jewish propaganda about Palestine, why do you believe Jewish propaganda about the holocaust?
Because the Holocaust did happen and has nothing to do with today's Zionist aggression against the Palestinians. The attribute "Jewish" does not necessarily mean that something is wrong and bad. The "Jewish Internet Consortium" collected this stuff but didn't produce it.
