Activists Protest ‘Conversion Therapy’ Conference In San Diego

Discussion in 'Gay & Lesbian Rights' started by sec, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    He is saying his argument is speculation. He is saying also that yours is too.

    Speculation isn't a bad thing a lot of the times it's correct that's how we get our weather forecast.

    The trick is to find speculators who are educated and well-versed in the field they're speculating in.

    Since a lot of people that speculate that homosexuality is a choice are informed mostly by the Bible and nothing of scientific value you can gauge the value of their speculation on the subject.

    I am not incredibly well versed thus I do not speculate.
     
  2. Aphotic

    Aphotic Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2014
    Messages:
    13,595
    Likes Received:
    6,113
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Even Jesus said men were born Eunuchs, a legal term used in ancient rome to describe men who slept with other men.

    The bible is to be his undoing if he uses it as an argument.
     
  3. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    He's pretty good about not doing that.

    What I'm saying is that he admitted that his argument was speculation.

    As I said before speculation isn't the bad thing. It all really comes down to the Speculator and their level of Education. And so the motivations behind speculation.

    Some people speculate because based on their understanding and the evidence available they believe something to be true others do it because they want something to be true.
     
  4. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    58,376
    Likes Received:
    4,437
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't believe there is any biological trait that dictates a homosexual orientation. They merely influence the outcome.
     
  5. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    These two sentences seem a bit contradictory to one another. Perhaps I misunderstood.

    So you don't think it's one single trait but multiple?
     
  6. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Many westerners think the western model of parenting is superior. Allowing kids to sink or swim, without strong guidance and involved support, is 'abusive', IMO. Allowing kids to fall into 'decisions' arrived at via chaos instead of via closely guided direction, is almost always a mistake. And I don't doubt for a moment that you will regard this as 'controlling'. You will see it that way because that's the only version of 'closely guided direction' that you've experienced or seen. There is another kind of guidance. It doesn't focus any attention on the personality of the child (because it doesn't help the child to do so .. it encourages him to think personality is more important than character), nor get involved in his preferences, nor talk to him about adult issues. It guides merely in terms of character ... good mental health, stability, productivity, self-respect, and kindness)

    You're bias is a result of your limited exposure .. having only known the western model. And since the western model for child-rearing is about the worst there is (check the end result of this parenting, if you doubt), it's understandable that you would see better parenting and a) not recognise it, and b) regard it as very alien (and therefore necessarily bad).
     
  7. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It is superior to what you are describing though I don't believe your description.

    It is in my opinion too. But that is not what you are comparing it to.
    I also don't believe homosexuality is a decision arrived at via chaos. It's a conclusion based on observation.

    Not allowing kids to just sink or swim? I don't regard that as controlling at all. But that isn't what you are talking about. You are talking about cultural stigma passed down from parents on homosexuals.

    I still don't believe parents have any control over their children's sexual orientation. The existence of two sexes automatically make it an option. So I don't believe your claim that it simply isn't an option. If course it is.

    I see parents that place their interests over their children's happiness as not giving guidance but being self centered. We have plenty of those in western culture.

    Sexual orientation isn't a personality trait. So I don't see what this would change.

    Blaming my bias for your lack of argument isn't going to work.

    You have presented absolutely nothing to support your claims. And claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

    The result of parenting is society. The west is the best and the US is the best of the west. That's why people are coming here in droves. this isn't bias this is observable fact.

    Chinese people that come here lose their "superior parenting philosophy" in one generation normally. Even Chinese people think our culture is better.

    So you are the one with the bias and inability to evaluate things objectively. I think you just went data hunting and found a correlation and just jumped to a conclusion.
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is no 'controlling of potential homosexuality', it's not stigmatised, and parents don't tell their kids it's unacceptable. They simply DON'T MENTION IT AT ALL. I've said this over and over again.

    Parents absolutely do not put themselves first when they choose to be very actively involved in the forming of their children. That's putting yourself last, in fact. I'm unsure how you could have arrived at the conclusion that close parenting is easy or self-centred. And FTR, these involved parents are ONLY guiding towards soundness and decency ... not their own personal preferences. The personal preferences of the child are the stuff of adulthood, and not the parents' concern. Again, you have limited experience of this stuff, so only have the 'meddling' western model to draw your conclusions from. Asian parents don't meddle (in the mind or personality). They understand they have limited time to guide, and so focus on the stuff that matters .. soundness, productivity, and decency.

    I'm impressed that you think American parenting is superior. That's quite an achievement. Meantime, the Chinese diaspora have been raising their kids the same way for hundreds of years. No matter how many generations have been in the west, 99% of them will still be raised the Chinese way.
     
  9. Colombine

    Colombine Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    5,233
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Apparently, according to the Red Army, Chinese kids are increasingly unfit for military service because they're too fat and they masturbate too much :roflol:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/wor...much-to-pass-army-fitness-tests-a3617881.html

    "A poor diet and frequent masturbation, leading to abnormally large testicular veins, are believed to be behind falling fitness levels, according to a report published in state-run military newspaper the People’s Liberation Army Daily."

    As if that weren't enough, too much early computer play is also contributing to a rise in failing eyesight; compromising service readiness even more.

    Are they sure it's the computers? :smile:

    So much for that "superior" parenting?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
    Polydectes likes this.
  10. Colombine

    Colombine Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    5,233
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Trophy Points:
    113
    They never used to mention it at all in the West either. Didn't stop people turning out gay.

    It's inbuilt not exerted.
     
    Polydectes likes this.
  11. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm sorry sweetie, you are making claims with no evidence. I simply don't believe you. And claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

    So let's go through your claims.
    1)Homosexuality is an idea you first have to be exposed to in order to think it a possibility.

    To wit I responded all you really need is multiple people of the sexes.

    You presented no evidence, thus your claim is dismissed.

    2) You claimed Chinese parents don't allow that to be an option.

    To wit colombine posted links to Chinese gay clubs. Thus it's part of culture and it's certainly an option.

    That claim had no evidence, thus its dismissed.

    3) you claimed to know what Chinese people think and that just because fewer people identify as gay that there are fewer gay people.

    To wit I explained you can't know what people are thinking.

    That claim is dismissed.

    You have nothing left to argue. All you can do is present evidence.

    You lost any shred of credibility when you insinuated that I just don't know enough about Chinese culture. That doesn't make any difference i could have been born in China and raised there. You still wouldn't have any evidence.

    My argument was never dependant on a strong knowledge or any knowledge whatsoever of Chinese culture it was dependant on facts or your lack there of.

    You just don't have a leg to stand on.
     
  12. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    58,376
    Likes Received:
    4,437
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No trait determines homosexuality. Heres an example.

    "The brains of gay and heterosexual people also appear to be organised differently. For example patterns of brain organisation appear similar between gay men and heterosexual women and between lesbian women and heterosexual men. Gay men appear, on average, more “female typical” in brain pattern responses and lesbian women are somewhat more “male typical”."

    What did the study actually show?

    "Rightward hemispheric asymmetry was found in the brains of 14 of 25 heterosexual males and 11 of 20 homosexual females, but in only 13 of 25 heterosexual females and 10 of 20 homosexual males."
    http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=256

    So 50% of the homosexual male brains resembled 52% of the heterosexual female brains, the other 50% DID NOT resemble those brains.
    And 55% of the homosexual female brains resembled 56% of the heterosexual male brains. The other 45 % DID NOT resemble those brains. Thats the entire basis of this much heralded "gay brain". Would seem such biological factors at most have only the slightest influence on sexual orientation. They obviously do not determine it.
     
  13. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I wasn't confused by that. I was confused by the follow-up statement. You said biological traits influence it.

    What are those traits and how would they influence it without determining it? If they don't determine it and merely influenced it what really determines it?

    I'm just asking for hypothesis.
     
  14. emilynghiem

    emilynghiem Active Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Dear @dixon76710 and @Polydectes
    1. even if these differences are not proven to be genetic, they could still be caused
    by chemical or hormonal changes in the womb during neurological development.
    The Bible also mentions some eunuchs are made by man and some by God/in the womb.

    2. The common factor I found is gender/orientation are SPIRITUAL identity and faith based
    similar to someone identifying and expressing themselves as Christian, Muslim, Buddhist Atheist.
    These also show up as differences in the brain, between liberal and conservative thought,
    but PRAYER and MEDITATION show up as common patterns and brain waves regardless of faith.

    Spiritual identity is protected under religious freedom and creed, that can neither be
    established, prohibited or discriminated against by govt, which should remain neutral so everyone is equally represented without bias for or against one belief or another.

    3. the studies on TWINS also show that homosexuality is not genetic.
    Otherwise, both twins would always have the same orientation, and they don't.
    The highest % of correlation is under 50% matching orientation in twins,
    and even that was contested as inflated by biased reporting. The real figure is argued as less, so it isn't 100% correlation in twins. Thus, some of the cause is environmental, whether that is before or after birth.

    4. Not all cases are the same. Some people can change, some cannot.
    Both sides are wrong to argue that "all" homosexuality is natural and not a choice, or "all" homosexuality is unnatural and a choice of behavior.

    Orientation has abeen shown to change in some people by voluntary healing
    to either come out as straight or as transgender or homosexual or bisexual.
    Look up the books and counseling interviews with Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt.

    The therapy and counseling they teach on natural spiritual healing is based
    on forgiving past abuses and conflicts that create the guilt, fear and anxiety
    so when these negative factors are removed and healed, people are able
    to return to their natural identity and default state, regardless what that turns out to be.
    It's not about "forcing or coercing" change, which is damaging, never works and causes harm.

    The real spiritual healing is freely chosen and helps the person to heal of abuses
    and negative conditioning; whether the people come out straight, gay or transgender.
    The point is to be at peace and accept one's natural spirituality.

    This isn't necessarily genetic, and doesn't have to be in order to protect one's identity.
    If we all agree to treat LGBT beliefs equally as faith based and spiritual process and identity,
    then all people would have equal freedom to express and exercise their beliefs,
    and not be required to prove anything by science. We don't have to prove our
    beliefs in Christianity or God by science, so why is this necessary for LGBT beliefs.

    Treat LGBT beliefs the same as beliefs in Christianity, and Christian expressions
    and exercise. Either allow all of these choices equally without harassment or bullying to
    coerce or exclude one or the other, or keep them ALL in private and out of govt policies period.

    Govt and public policies should be neutral and all inclusive.
    If you are going to object to Christian beliefs and practices to be included,
    then LGBT beliefs should not be imposed either. All creeds should be treated equally,
    or else it's discrimination to punish people for their beliefs on either side. Thank you!
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  15. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I disagree that it is "spiritual."

    I even disagree that it's an identity. For me it for most people sexuality is just a facet of them. Political movements attempt to make it an identity, and there's a certain amount of rebellion argument and discussion that must go on when someone's accepting something about themselves such as sexual orientation or religious affiliation or anything of that nature. And at that time it is your identity but it isn't a Perpetual thing. If it was that would be exhausting. I spent about 2 years angry at the world going through stages I listed above but now it's just a small part of me. I'm welder I worship Jesus I'm in a relationship with a man I live in Texas they're all just details. They aren't particular spiritual or even something I spend a lot of time reflecting on.

    I don't really care for the word spiritual because I don't know what it describes. If it's some sort of connection with Supernatural phenomena it doesn't apply to me because I don't believe in such things per se.
     
  16. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    58,376
    Likes Received:
    4,437
    Trophy Points:
    113
    AS OPPOSED TO DETERMINING IT. I don't believe rational discussion is going to be possible here.
     
  17. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Well if you're going to be emotional about it than you're likely right.

    But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

    Influence doesn't determine something? Can you explain what you mean by that.
     
  18. emilynghiem

    emilynghiem Active Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2014
    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Thanks @Polydectes The "spirit" of life is energy, it is not something "supernatural" but it is part of nature. It's about the connection between the individual and others, in relationships, or between the individual and the collective society or humanity as a whole.

    We can't prove that "all humanity is connected in spirit."
    Thus we call that spiritual and faith-based.

    It's like having faith that someone is acting out of good will or ill will. It's the "spirit" of how someone speaks or acts, the "vibes" or 'energy" if it's positive or negative.

    Someday science will be able to measure the difference between positive and negative energy in tangible forms we can read physically. But until we have that down, people take it on faith, based on what we "feel" or "sense" is right or wrong, good or bad intent.

    Have you ever studied the healing process?
    Whether you call that spiritual or natural, it follows the same stages, similar to the grief and recovery process.

    so that's what I am referring to.

    I believe all people are spiritual beings, but we may express this in "secular"/nontheistic language, or use religious symbolism for it. Human nature is the same regardless. We just have different terms depending which system of laws each person relates to, where some prefer religious and some the social sciences to define the terms.

    Thanks @Polydectes and I hope to discuss this further with you. on your terms of course! yours truly, Emily
     
  19. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    So you are saying the "spirit of life is energy?" That seems more vague and further muddys the water. Life is matter not energy. Sure it takes energy to sustain life, but that isn't spiritual its rather mundane. Interconnections are not spiritual they are also mundane. That happens through communication, empathy and desire to be with our own kind. I don't see how spirituality has any effect on that.

    You can't really explain what spirit is in your context. I have no idea what is meant by spirit of life. Faith is merely another word for trust. People trust the wrong thing all the time. I've been guilty of it on occasion. So nothing can really be entirely faith based without being highly suspicious.

    Trusting that someone is acting out of good or ill will is simply self serving and really has no value outside of ones own mind.

    Again you are using the word "spirit" one a way I don't understand. You said spirit is the energy of life, that is food for animals. There is no other energy that is used by the body.

    Also explain how energy can be negative. If you take it on faith that a concept of negative energy exists you must have observed a need for it. I'm no physicist but I have a working knowledge of the basics. In what instance can you say there is the presence of "negative energy?"

    Healing in the meaning of your body making repairs to itself is the only type of healing I've known of. I haven't spent a lot of time studying it as I am not a biologist. But any other form of healing I'm not sure exists. I take it you didn't mean biology. Recovery isn't healing. You never heal from grief its just a process you go through. There is no injury associated with grief so there is no need for healing.

    I'm sorry that has not cleared anything up. Its only further confused me. I still feel "spirituality" is vague and this has only served to further muddy the waters.

    I have no idea what you mean by spirituality. From the definition it means that it has something to do with the soul. What is a soul. Its a term for something that isn't definable. Thus it's far to vague to discuss analytically. I prefer hard science to define terms but in the case of spirituality and soul we can go by what you and I agree they mean.

    The problem is, I have absolutely no idea what spirituality describes. I find the term vague.
     
  20. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    58,376
    Likes Received:
    4,437
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Read my post on the gay brain. Does the gay brain determine sexual orientation? NO, it only has the slightest correlation and at most the gay brain only makes homosexuality ever so SLIGHTLY more likely.
     
  21. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If you link it I will read it but I'm not digging for it.
     
  22. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    58,376
    Likes Received:
    4,437
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
  23. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    53,251
    Likes Received:
    18,015
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I accepted it. The issue I was not understanding was your follow up statement. You still haven't explained it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
  24. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I've spent 30 years researching and studying parenting models (a variety, from around the world) and their outcomes. It's not my personal experience, nor opinion based on personal experience. My personal experience of parenting has been the western model .. the same as yours.

    You have only your personal experience (of parenting) and your personal opinion based on that experience.
     
  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sexuality is not a choice. Not in the sense you mean here.
     

Share This Page