Adoption

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Sappho, Jun 13, 2020.

  1. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    This is true to an extent. There are many reasons that closed adoptions do NOT cause suffering. For examples,

    * The mother is married to someone who is not the father of her unborn child (she wants to keep that a secret).
    * The birth parents aren't financially secure and know they aren't ready to take care of another human (yes, contraception would be easier).
    * The adoptive parents are unable to conceive a child and have the resources by which to adopt.
    * The adopted child has been given a better (that's relative) than they would have had with their biological parents.

    Also, ALL adoptions are not "closed." We have "open" adoptions in the US as well.
     
  2. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    In college, one of my professors discussed a study regarding how white babies are preferable over black babies. In summary, people would rather have a very sick white child than a healthy black child. I couldn't find it during a quick Google search but I found this article about giving an incentive for black adoptions.

    https://www.npr.org/2013/06/27/195967886/six-words-black-babies-cost-less-to-adopt

    It's bizarre to me that people get upset when some of us say that racism not only exists, but is rampant toward certain groups. I guess it's easier to ignore things like this than face the reality that people of color (any) are treated differently.
     
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  3. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    This is accurate. Force feeding anything is still using force.

    Prior to everyone having a cell phone and internet, people used phone books to look up phone numbers. In one of a region's phone book was a top listing for an adoption site. Pregnant women would call in and schedule an appointment. In reality, it was actually Christian-based anti-abortion center. Women were basically shamed and blamed and made to feel guilty about their choice to have an abortion. Some of these women ended up committing suicide because they felt they had no choice. The formula of entrapping women who are often already scared, upset and ashamed is unconscionable, IMO.
     
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  4. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Yes you did. Your words ' abortion issue centers around two choices, abortion or gestation' i.e. a binary decision, toast or bagels or in your own words 'what car to buy' which in the end comes down to A or B.

    On counseling: how is the ease with which the decision is made not relevant if every woman's circumstances are different and what is the point of even having abortion councilors if if not to provide advice and counsel as per the dictionary definition of the word i.e. to provide advice. And who said anything about forcing counsel upon anyone. All I ever wrote about was providing informed advice and options, nowhere did I suggest or even hint that any form of compulsion would or should be involved.

    As for thinking that baby's have to be white to be 'desirable' for adoption. That's most defiantly not the case here. You want to bring race into the discussion - you get to run with that issue all on your own.

    Which brings me to my next point - glad to know you have no interest in other countries or the opinions of people from those countries BTW, wide open mind you have there.

    And again who said anything about obliging/forcing woman to produce children specifically for adoption. I made it quite clear in a previous post that the issue was not about increasing supply meet demand. In fact I stated that regardless of whether or not adoption was discussed as an option in the modern world there would always be more people seeking to adopt than there were children available. In an age of almost universal birth control options how could it be otherwise. So please stop with whole force/compulsion line of argument - it was never even hinted at by anyone other than yourself.

    The point you don't seem to grasp is that from my perspective the issue was never providing more children for adoption it was providing more information, to the women, if they ask for it or imply to a counselor that they might want it.

    Oh the 'fat' was a typo don't know how that got in there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  5. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    If you're addressing me, this is what I posted and in no way have you refuted it or shown it to be incorrect:

    This is the Abortion Forum. The issue of "choice" here is whether a woman chooses abortion or gestation NOT every choice she'll make after that.



    Here's something that isn't true : you: "" In fact I stated that regardless of whether or not adoption was discussed as an option in the modern world there would always be more people seeking to adopt than there were children available""

    In this country there are many children waiting for adoption, some even "age out" of the system because they WERE NOT adopted by all those people you claim are wanting to adopt..
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  6. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Defining the debate in those absolute terms literally means no debate at all. If you can't discuss the issues informing and affecting that decision (or any decision) including the consequences what is there to actually debate?

    You are literally arguing that people on this thread may choose option (A) or option (B) but may never discuss the pros, cons including consequences of that potential choice. Pick one other topic, any other topic on this forum where insane that rule applies. There wouldn't be a forum.

    News flash ALL decisions in life have consequences and those potential consequences help frame our decision making process. Who we vote for, what job we take, who we marry, what car we buy (your favorite) every single time we make a decision barring life and death emergencies we tend to consider the potential repercussions and consequences of that choice before we make it. But not apparently in this case - at least according to you..

    Not knowing the country you live in (I assume the US) but throughout most of western Europe and certainly here in Australia there is a critical shortage.
     
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  7. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    No, it does not mean no debate.... the absolutes in the issue, to gestate or abort....


    What else? The attempt by Anti-Choicers to eliminate women's right to their own body to fulfill some weird need of their own.


    .

    Please feel free to start a thread, in another forum, on the pros and cons of adoption.

    There are only TWO choices in women's freedom of choice debate, gestation or abortion.






    I hardly need a newsflash from you on life.

    And where TF did I say no one should """ consider the potential repercussions and consequences of that choice before we make it"""

    Please show proof that women do not do this




    Then maybe Australians should start adopting our UNadopted kids because there are LOTS of them. See, here Anti-Choicers think life is "precious" only until it's born....then not so much..
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  8. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    'I hardly need a newsflash from you on life.' Oh that's understood. Your the one who doesn't care (or know) about what goes on in other countries. That being the case nothing I say matters.

    So you want a 'debate' where only two 'absolutes' can be discussed but none of the potential ramifications of those absolutes mentioned? Also the opinions/inputs of people you disagree with (Anti-choicers - not one BTW) are not welcome?

    That's going to be one hell of a short/lonely debate.

    As for the rest? international legal restrictions on foreign adoptions make that option next to impossible and where possible out of the financial reach of most families.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
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  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    "Short debate" ?? LOLOLOL Why don't you actually look at the threads in this forum ??? Short ? WTF !? :)

    Which means that adoption is NOT always a good option.


    Here's a question, answer Yes or No:


    Do you think women are so stupid that they don't know that if they have a kid they can put it up for adoption?
     
  10. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Here's another question.

    You say in some places there is a "critical" shortage of kids to adopt....as if that's a bad thing !

    Isn't it good that there aren't more children being given up for adoption ???!!!!!!!
     
  11. Sappho

    Sappho Active Member

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    What would you accept as proof, that some women don't consider the potential repercussions and consequences of that choice before the decision is made?
     
  12. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    1) Because I have no particular interest in diving into the the Abortion debate per se. Its one of those issues in life (like drug reform) where there is no perfect answer, no upside where everybody wins and nobody loses. Also because after all this time peoples positions on the issue are generally so welded in place that what should be a debate rapidly degenerates into a shouting match resolves nothing and becomes very pointless very quickly. Like this is. The ONLY reason I even bothered on this occasion is because I saw this thread on adoption in passing and thought it a side issue that doesn't comes up all that often - at least as far as I've noticed - given that, as I said I pay little attention so I dropped in (lucky me).
    2) Who said it was always a good option? I didn't. I said it was an option?
    3) Woman in general ? Of course not. (The juries still out on you BTW but that's a separate matter.) So to state the blindingly obvious because you seem to be missing it . Knowing you can adopt out a child if you wish and being familiar with how the process works, what the legal processes are, how long it takes, what rights the various parties have etc are two entirely different things. Just like knowing you can have a abortion if you need one is different to knowing how that process works and what the issues are. I assume you have no problem with advice being sought and given on abortion? Albeit if you do then you must think woman are so stupid they don't realize they can have one? (back at you). I mean surely no-one needs advice or support on topics like abortion or adoption etc do they, not in the 2020s?

    Its bad from the perspective of childless couples, its great from the perspective of kids who stay with parents who then do a good job of raising them (the majority). Its also a very bad outcome when they end up in the care of parents who don't/can't care for them. So the judgement is entirely situational. Do I think providing information on adoption is a bad idea no, would doing so produce a significant increase in the number of children given up for adoption? Again no, a small increase is likely but not a big one. Would even a small change be a positive step? - obviously yes.

    As I said at the start I have witnessed a degree of institutional bias against adoption in various social service agencies. This is for very good historical reasons. In the past the processes and outcomes of adoption were often appalling. That bias seems to be changing of late however in the face of changed processes and procedures - and very high numbers of neglect cases. So why not raise it as a consideration if the situation (and I know, every situation is different ) warrants it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
  13. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    No, it does not mean no debate.... the absolutes in the issue, to gestate or abort...


    I hardly need a newsflash from you on life.

    And where TF did I say no one should """ consider the potential repercussions and consequences of that choice before we make it"""

    Please show proof that women do not do this


    Yes, SOME don't ...but many do ….just like every other person on earth...did you want to give every other person on earth special counseling on everything THEY do ?
     
  14. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    "Short debate" ??

    1) LOLOLOL Why don't you actually look at the threads in this forum ??? Short ? WTF !? :)
    2) Which means that adoption is NOT always a good option.
    3) Here's a question, answer Yes or No:
    Do you think women are so stupid that they don't know that if they have a kid they can put it up for adoption?



    :) The Official Insult Revealing Poster Has no Good Argument and It Shows....[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
  15. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    [/QUOTE]

    I'm sorry I have literally no idea what it is you are tying to say.
     
  16. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    The options and availability of adoption can influence the choice whether to abort or gestate. That makes it a legit issue with regards. For example, a lack of ability to give up for adoption might increase abortions, or even easier means to give up for adoption could lower abortions (more than they already are lowering).
     
  17. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Since laws can be changed, and even SCOTUS decisions can be reversed by Amendments, it's never a non-issue. An unlikely change maybe.
     
  18. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Actually within the adoption context, the birth parent(s) (might be both, although more commonly a single mother) have a right to determine if the adoption is open or closed. This determines if the child can seek their birth parents later in life. IIRC, most laws have changed to maintain medical records open though, in case of later rising issues.
     
  19. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    I asked : ""Do you think women are so stupid that they don't know that if they have a kid they can put it up for adoption?""

    And you responded with an silly insult
    ""3) Woman in general ? Of course not. (The juries still out on you BTW but that's a separate matter.) """

    When you sink to insults it shows desperation and no argument.

    ""The Official Insult Revealing Poster Has no Good Argument and It Shows...."""
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
  20. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    In the area of debate (we are on a debate site after all) the one who makes the claim (you in this case) is the one responsible for backing it up. It also allows the rest to see what you are basing the argument upon in order to form rebuttal.
     
  21. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, most of the demand is for babies, with preschool right behind. Which leaves the older children available for adoption not getting adopted.
     
  22. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    In this case you are wrong. Especially in the case of young women and underage girls. Depending upon their exposure and education, they may not know all the options. Furthermore, the professionals should be offering up all the options so that it cannot be said that the women didn't know her options. No one gets to make the decision for the women in question, but in the end it will always involve someone else, be that the abortion doctor, the adoption agency or several other potential professionals.
     
  23. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    That may be true but the abortion issue (choice) is about only two options, abortion or gestation.


    There are many things that may influence a woman to choose one or the other....that has nothing to do with her right to have those two choices.

    Some seem to think that women should have to undergo counseling about adoption but I wonder if those same people think that women should have to undergo counseling about the realities of raising children (it's not all pleasant) , and the realities of what 9 months of pregnancy does to their body, careers, education, and finances....
     
  24. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    [
    And yet you didn't address any of the other points I raised in my post.

    As for insults? I seem to remember a comment about someone not caring about the opinions of people from other counties? Who said that then?
     
  25. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    No one needs to go through a woman's options but her.

    No one needs to put "options on the table"..they are on the table and women know about them...they don't need someone to tell them..

    Of course women will make their own decision...it should be no other way!!!

    Many years ago it was determined that women will make their own decisions just like men do...

    And it's no one's business but the pregnant one..

    "adoption" has no place in the abortion forum.

    The issue of "choice" has to do with gestation or abortion...….adoption has as much to do with "choice" as what a woman's choice in cars is..



    Wrong about what? That women are smart enough to know about adoption?


    .
    Again:
    Some seem to think that women should have to undergo counseling about adoption but I wonder if those same people think that women should have to undergo counseling about the realities of raising children (it's not all pleasant) , and the realities of what 9 months of pregnancy does to their body, careers, education, and finances....
     

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