Adoption

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Sappho, Jun 13, 2020.

  1. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You didn't raise any valid points....and what was there I already addressed


    And saying I don't care about what other countries do is hardly an insult.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
  2. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Firstly saying something along the line of 'but you have no valid points to answer' is usually the last refuge of someone who has lost the argument. I answered you arguments. Your counter?

    Secondly saying you don't care about the thoughts or opinions of someone who lives in another country is just as bad as saying you don't care about the thoughts or opinions of someone if they are from a different race, gender, political creed or religion. Or is that analysis wrong?
     
  3. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Here's a poser for those who think women must be "counseled" on adoption and the glories of pregnancy and providing other people with children

    How about at the same time they are given the following list...all in the interest of FAIR play:

    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.
     
  4. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    There is a major difference between ensuring a woman is aware of all choices and has a chance to ask about pros and cons (and decide which results are pro and con), and having to sit through forced counseling. For the issue of choice between the two results during the pregnancy period, all options must be known including adoption. Suppressing knowledge of alternatives to abortions is as much anti-choice as trying to forcibly prevent abortion itself.
     
  5. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    You didn't raise any valid points....and what was there I already addressed.
    And saying I don't care about what other countries do is hardly an insult.



    …"....and what was there I already addressed."" See above post you quoted.

    No, it's not.
     
  6. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Please see Post # 53
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
  7. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Funny how those who want to talk women into feeling obligated to provide other people with children NEVER consider the impact of pregnancy on the woman herself...

    ..; as if women are just incubators, broodstock, not real humans...

    The following, of course, doesn't tell about the further damage to her finances, job, career, education, home life, ...pregancy is all just lying around the house eating strawberries and peanut butter, easy peasy ….. to those who are NOT pregnant...


    How about at the same time they are given the following list...all in the interest of FAIR play:

    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.
     
  8. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    And I assert I did. Notice I haven't ever said you had no valid points. I can assume then you resolve from the debate?

    And also. No??? That's your answer? Brilliant elucidation of your argument. So saying you don't care about someone's opinion because (A) they are say for arguments sake a different race - is BAD. But saying you don't care about their opinion because (B) they happen to live on the other side of the globe - is OK/GOOD? Two people but two different sets of rules. Good to know.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Let me know when you can get past hurt feelings and deliberate misinterpretations and address the topic which , for some reason, you seem to be avoiding ;)

    Like posts 53 and 57
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
  10. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    No hurt feelings. Just acceptance of the fact you won't/can't respond to my points. BTW I checked posts 53 and 57 and guess what they have nothing to do with the anything I said. Point to one, just one post where I said women should have children to assist others in becoming parents.
     
  11. Sappho

    Sappho Active Member

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    The matter is moot now... The US does indeed have open adoption!
     
  12. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    For this specific matter, yes. But keep that in mind for the future. If you assert something, we are going to insist that you back it up.
     
  13. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it has a great deal to do with your promotion of adoption, of pushing adoption "counseling" without presenting all sides of the issue like the effects of pregnancy.


    Don't you think women should be shown the effects of pregnancy ?

    Wouldn't that be fair?

    Gee, maybe some women don't know about those effects...just like you assume women don't know about adoption
     
  14. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    You seem to want to take what a few want to impose, and then in turn impose that motive on all who don't fall into lockstep with you.

    Here is a basic run down of how it should go.:

    "Your pregnancy test came back positive. You do have some options here. First there is an abortion. Or you can bring the child to term, in which case you can either keep it, or give it up for adoption. I will be happy to answer any questions you might have on any of these options. Or I can give you referrals to others who can as well. The choice is yours. Do you have any questions or concerns?"

    It's not that hard or involved to ensure that a woman knows she has choices or provide her with whatever information she might want.
     
  15. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    I would think the first option is to gestate. But there are only TWO choices when it comes to the Abortion Issue....gestate or abort.

    Is this information she should also have?

    Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

    • exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
    • altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
    • nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
    • heartburn and indigestion
    • constipation
    • weight gain
    • dizziness and light-headedness
    • bloating, swelling, fluid retention
    • hemmorhoids
    • abdominal cramps
    • yeast infections
    • congested, bloody nose
    • acne and mild skin disorders
    • skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
    • mild to severe backache and strain
    • increased headaches
    • difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
    • increased urination and incontinence
    • bleeding gums
    • pica
    • breast pain and discharge
    • swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint paininfection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
      (pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
    • extreme pain on delivery
    • hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
    • continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    • stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    • loose skin
    • permanent weight gain or redistribution
    • abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    • pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life -- aka prolapsed utuerus, the malady sometimes badly fixed by the transvaginal mesh)
    • changes to breasts
    • increased foot size
    • varicose veins
    • scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    • other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    • increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    • loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    • higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    • newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    Occasional complications and side effects:

    • complications of episiotomy
    • spousal/partner abuse
    • hyperemesis gravidarum
    • temporary and permanent injury to back
    • severe scarring requiring later surgery
      (especially after additional pregnancies)
    • dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
    • pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
    • eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
    • gestational diabetes
    • placenta previa
    • anemia (which can be life-threatening)
    • thrombocytopenic purpura
    • severe cramping
    • embolism (blood clots)
    • medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
    • diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
    • mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
    • serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
    • hormonal imbalance
    • ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
    • broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
    • hemorrhage and
    • numerous other complications of delivery
    • refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
    • aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
    • severe post-partum depression and psychosis
    • research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
    • research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
    • research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease
    Less common (but serious) complications:

    • peripartum cardiomyopathy
    • cardiopulmonary arrest
    • magnesium toxicity
    • severe hypoxemia/acidosis
    • massive embolism
    • increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
    • molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease
      (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
    • malignant arrhythmia
    • circulatory collapse
    • placental abruption
    • obstetric fistula
    More permanent side effects:


    • future infertility
    • permanent disability
    • death.









    (along with what this will do to her education, finances, and job) ?
     
  16. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Given that the gestate option then spurns two other options, it seems simpler to start with a simple option, and then note the one that splits off from there.
     
  17. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    There are two options, gestation or abortion. The End.

    If gestation brings about counseling on adoption then shouldn't gestation bring about counseling on the effects of pregnancy which some in here are carefully avoiding? ;)
     
  18. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    The adoption option is on the board from the beginning, because the process begins during the gestation period, or at least can, if the women chooses adoption that early. Furthermore, at any time prior to the actual event, consent for any option can be withdrawn and a new option chosen. The counseling for, if elected, and decision making all occur during gestation, including abortion. Granted abortion is the only option that cuts gestation short, but it still occurs during gestation. Pro-choice, remember. The women gets to choose what she wants information on. The only thing that needs to be presented are the choices she has to choose from. I'm not calling for automatic counselling on adoption. Only that when the woman learns of pregnancy, she is made aware, in case she didn't know, that she has the options of abortion, adoption or raising the offspring. From there she chooses what she wants to learn about, if necessary. You're the one imagining that those of us here are pushing for anything further than that. And yes we acknowledge that there are those who want to present one sided mandatory "counseling". Your error is conflating that with us.
     
  19. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    FoxHastings said:
    There are two options, gestation or abortion. The End.

    If gestation brings about counseling on adoption then shouldn't gestation bring about counseling on the effects of pregnancy which some in here are carefully avoiding? ;)


    .


    Women know the choices...abortion or gestation....they do not need help making their own decisions AFTER THAT anymore than any other person needs "counseling" from strangers on decisions in their lives.


    \






    Those last TWO are the SAME, GESTATION.


    The two original choices in the ABORTION ISSUE are gestation or abortion.








    There are two options, gestation or abortion. The End.



    If gestation brings about counseling on adoption then shouldn't gestation bring about counseling on the effects of pregnancy a question which some in here are carefully avoiding? ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
  20. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    This is your assumption. Pregnancy can occur in young girls as well. Do you think that they are up on all their choices. There are women who are sheltered by the parents and might not honestly realize that there are options. We're not making any assumptions. Until they are informed of the choices, or indicate for themselves their knowledge of their choices, then it can never be known for sure if they are aware of their choices. Sure, you go right ahead and assume every female who gets pregnant already knows all there is needed to know for when she gets pregnant.



    But in order to make a decision whether to abort or gestate, and what options there are within the two, all the information the woman desires must be available, and thus she needs to know what information is available. It's not like she has to make a decision right then and there, or cannot change her mind later. You make it sound like, "You choose gestation! we can now discuss adoption or keeping it, but abortion is now off the table!"


    The end for you, maybe, but you don't get to decide that for everyone else.

    Because it's a strawman question. Pregnancy brings on three options to consider. Gestation is already occurring. So gestation brings on abortion, adoption and keeping as the three possible outcomes that the woman can choose. There are other possible outcomes, as you have shown, but they are not choices. The woman chooses what options she wants information/counseling on. She can choose to continue in ignorance, learn about only one option, two of them, or all three. Regardless, all three need to be available and she needs to know they are available. Any idea of that counseling being forced upon her by anyone here is all in your head and not in reality.
     
  21. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    So let's be sure every young naïve girl KNOWS that abortion is an option.....good idea !!!!!

    and does that "education " INCLUDE THE GIANT LIST OF THE EFFECTS OF PREGNANCY ?????




    Oh mygoodgawd…

    How TF can a woman choose adoption if she chooses abortion?

    SEE! There are only TWO choices, abortion or gestation.....A woman needs to gestate to have a kid to adopt out...don't you know that??????

    The CHOICE has been made at that stage ….



    And in the ABORTION ISSUE there are only TWO choices, to abort or gestate.
    There is no third option since if the woman aborts there is no kid to adopt out and if she GESTATES adopting out has NO affect or influence or anything to do with her right to choose either abortion or gestation.


    Now, I've explained the facts of life to you and it looks like you just can't accept it....this is futile.....

    When the Supreme Court entertained RvW please tell me where adoption entered into the debate …..
     
  22. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    1) Again point to one, just one post where I said ' counselors should 'push' adoption as an option i.e as being preferable over other options.

    2) & 3) Same thing. Point to any post where I said (even hinted) that women shouldn't receive advice about potential pre or post natal medical issues. And again since you wont address the point I made earlier - where did I state 'woman don't know about adoption.

    You also seem to have fallen into a pattern of criticizing me for claims I never actually made. Please read what I post carefully, in context and then if you decide to reply address those points. Not ones you've made up in your head.

    I also made it perfectly clear previously that any advice given about adoption relates to processes and procedures etc in the jurisdiction where the woman lived. Just as advice about abortion relates to processes and procedures etc in that jurisdiction. In other words specific details not concepts.

    Does that clarify the issue for you or do I have to keep repeating myself.
     
  23. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    I posted : ""When the Supreme Court entertained RvW please tell me where adoption entered into the debate …..""

    The debate in the Supreme Court ! Not here,duh...WHERE in the SUPREME COURT ruling on RvW did they mention adoption ?...DUH

    The rest of your post , after the gratuitous insult, is just the same convoluted nonsense..
     
  24. Maquiscat

    Maquiscat Well-Known Member

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    Are you perhaps asking about the ruling and not the debate? Because those are two wildly different things.

    As noted, Pot, Kettle, Achromatic.
     
  25. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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