Afghanistan, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Patricio Da Silva, Aug 16, 2021.

  1. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,271
    Likes Received:
    16,942
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    For years, we heard America bellyache about the 'forever war' an Afghanistan.

    Trump sensed the will of the people, but caught hell for wanting to invite the Taliban to the Oval Office. Well, for good reason, that is a crowd you never want to invite into the Oval Office, for obvious reasons.

    "had a very good conversation with the leader of the Taliban today. They're looking to get this ended and we're looking to get this ended. I think we all have a very common interest. We'll find out about the country itself, but the country really has to get it ended, other presidents have tried and couldn't get any kind of agreement. The relationship is very good that I have with the Mullah. We had a good long conversation today, and and they want to, you know, cease the violence--they'd like to cease violence also". --Trump

    Trump and Pompeo signed an agreement with the Taliban for the removal of US forces there, shortly thereafter. Just like Trump couldn't get the infrastructure bill done, he couldn't even get the withdrawal done.

    And you really want to know what happened? The Generals described to Trump what is now happening to Biden, and Trump didn't have the courage, nor integrity to do what Biden is doing, which is to 'not let problem of Afghanistan' pass to another president. But that IS what Biden is doing. The Generals told Biden what was going to happen, but he did it anyway, and he did it because he, in his good mind, knew that he couldn't let the buck pass on Afghanistan to another president, he knew what was going to happen, that it was going to be hell.

    Biden got both the infrastructure, AND the withdrawal done. Now, he is giving America what she wants, and end to the endless war.

    Let's be clear about one fact: AMERICA IS TIRED OF MIDDLE EAST WARS.

    If you are hooked on heroin or hard narcotics, withdrawal is always painful.

    But, never give Biden a break, let the bellyachers begin their bellyaching, once again.

    And, don't give me any crap you, or Trump, or anyone else, could have done better. Trump botched Covid, and he would have botched the withdrawal, as well. Let's be honest about the middle east: The middle east is a quagmire, for thousands of ****ing years it has always been a quagmire, so let's never get along, right? So let's continue to fight then, now, and to forever in this crazy land, and there are never good outcomes, only endless tribal squabbles and war, more war, and then some.

    Either we decide to stay, at a cost or more trillions, more death of Americans, or we get the hell out. Either path is going to have negative consequences. Either way, people are going to die. That is the middle east, the place where death is a constant companion.

    There are no easy answers or solutions.

    Make up your ****ing mind, America.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2021
    Lucifer, Pants and FoxHastings like this.
  2. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    37,773
    Likes Received:
    14,565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And for good reason. The U.S. has the worst foreign policy I can imagine. The problem isn't that we should or should not leave Afghanistan. We should. The problem is the incompetence with which we are doing it. It looks to me like the Pentagon needs a personnel cleaning. It failed to stand up to the committee running the white house. It could have been done outside the fighting season by removing everyone but the military and then removing the military last. Any general would tell you that. Well any competent one would.
     
  3. Steve N

    Steve N Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    70,216
    Likes Received:
    89,731
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I know you want to blame Trump, but the media and the world are blaming Biden.
     
    FatBack likes this.
  4. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    21,436
    Likes Received:
    12,227
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Korea a stalemate, Viet Nam a loss, Iraq a stalemate, Afghanistan a loss. We do not learn from our mistakes?? And now we have American taxpayers pay for armaments now turned over to the Taliban???
     
  5. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    37,773
    Likes Received:
    14,565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I would say that having the largest military in the world is a bad thing because we use it badly. Let's bring it all home.
     
  6. Tipper101

    Tipper101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    5,783
    Likes Received:
    3,038
    Trophy Points:
    113
    We either do it 7 months in to a new Presidency or we stay there forever? Ridiculous.

    it’ll cost trillions and thousands more lives? Ridiculous

    Combat missions were declared over by Obama back in 2014, we’ve been advise and train with minimal, easily maintained troop numbers ever since. 2500 to maintain Afghanistan is too much?

    We devote 35000 to Germany and 28000 to S.Korea. Over 300,000 personnel are in Europe

    our last casualty was a year and a half ago.

    so I’m wildly curious how Afghanistan is the troop death trap and money pit you guys are painting it to be.

    There was zero rush to do things stupid and boy did Biden do it stupid. 2500 troops to train and advise troops to scare away Taliban, keep their government in line, and prevent mass killings, terrorists freed from prison, torture, etc? To prevent Afghanistan being another staging ground for terrorist attacks all over the world? To prevent China moving in?

    That’s what you call a bargain. And that bargain was paid for and bought with blood and money, both of which are now wasted because Biden is a moron.
     
  7. Noone

    Noone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2021
    Messages:
    13,534
    Likes Received:
    7,982
    Trophy Points:
    113
    "Too bad all the people that can run the country are busy driving cabs and cutting hair" -George Burns
     
  8. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,271
    Likes Received:
    16,942
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    do you ever stop for just one minute to listen to the point of view of the other side? Did you even take a peek at the Doha agreement?

    Try it, if you can find a minute or two.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...rawal-has-shortcomings-i-stand-by-joe.591161/

    If incompetence really was an issue with you, you would have voted against Trump, which left only one alternative, that is Biden. And don't give me anhy crap that Biden is worse. Anyone and anything is better than Trump.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
    Lucifer, Noone and FoxHastings like this.
  9. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    37,773
    Likes Received:
    14,565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm not talking about agreements. I'm talking about a disastrous job of planning and executing the withdrawal. If you like it then you got it your way.

    I don't vote at all. But I consider Trump to be the most effective president since Coolidge. He was certainly disagreeable but definitely effective. I consider Biden to be a figurehead, not a president. He is the weakest president I can remember and his staff is messing up the country in a big way. Imagine that. We don't agree.
     
  10. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,271
    Likes Received:
    16,942
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Apparently you didn't notice that S. Korea, and Europe are not the quagmires that Afghanistan is.
    Moron?

    If you really want to understand moron logic, it's the logic that told us we had to stay there long enough to train the Afghan army that it could defend itself. Year after year, that was the rationale for staying, where everyone could see the elephant in the room, and that elephant was the fact that at any time you leave the country, the Taliban is going to swoop in and take over, and no president wanted to be president when that happened, so each president, two dems and two repubs, kicked the can down the road. Well, the ONLY president to have the courage to actually do it is Biden, and he did it KNOWING guys like you would bellyache.


    IN Korea, Germany, and Japan, money is only to support the Troops there.

    IN Afganistan, it was to build up, train the 300,000 man army and rebuild the country and THAT is why it's costing well over a trillion big ones.

    Moreover, Korea, Japan, and Germany, the soul and temperament of the folks that inhabit those lands, are conducive to democracy and stable governance. However, in Afghanistan, well, it's a middle east Muslim country. Not so stable, not so predictable, not so conducive to democratic governance. In other words, like many countries in the middle east, it's a quagmire.

    Well, each and every one of those 'Afghan fighters' we trained supposedly for the elusive day when they were supposed to be trained enough to defend themselves, well, all of them, they abandoned their posts, including the entire Afghan Gov having fled

    Trump did the Doha agreement with the Taliban, but he timed it so he wouldn't have to do the actual withdrawal himself, Trump just doesn't have that kind of courage to handle all the flack that the Generals warned him what would happen, so he kicked the can of the actual withdrawal to the next president, noting that the next president was bound by the terms of the Doha agreement, which was insufficient in allowing withdrawal in a given timeline, so extensions had to be gotten, still, not enough time to do it right, and now y'all are whining about it.

    If idiots really bothered you, you would have voted against Trump.

    FYI, 2500 troops is not enough to keep Afghanistan stable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
    Lucifer and Melb_muser like this.
  11. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Messages:
    31,271
    Likes Received:
    16,942
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Biden was limited by the terms of the Doha agreement THAT IS WHY I ASKED YOU TO LOOK AT IT.

    ****ING DUH!
    You won't even take a minute to research what you are criticising
    Yeah, Trump is so strong he is a one term president. ****ing loser.

    Biden is so weak he got more votes than any president in history.

    If you don't vote, then you have no right to criticize, that is my view.

    Trump is the worst president in history, and you can't even see it.

    But, Trump is a genius.........

    He duped 74 million people into believing he could make America Great Again!

    He convinced 74 million Americans that Mexico will pay for the wall

    After convincing 74 million Americans that Mexico will pay for the wall, he convinced them that US Army should pay for the wall

    He convinced 74 million Americans that he will reveal his tax returns

    After convincing 74 million Americans that he will reveal his tax returns he convinced them they don’t want to see his tax returns

    He convinced 74 million Americans that PERMANENT 14% tax cut he made for himself and his wealthy friends was not good for him but 2-4% TEMPORARY tax cut for American workers was very good for them.

    He convinced 74 million Americans that he lost 2016 popular vote because of millions of illegal votes.

    He convinced 74 million Americans to trust KGB officer and not the CIA/FBI

    He convinced 74 million Americans that putting lobbyist in his administration will drain the swamp

    https://www.opensecrets.org/trump/lobbyists

    He convinced 74 million Americans that there is nothing wrong with helping Chinese ZTE corporation after China invested a half billion dollars in a project from which Trump will benefits:

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/15/17355202/trump-zte-indonesia-lido-city

    He convinced 74 million Americans that after stopping the military aid to Ukraine he asked Ukraine president to investigate the son of his political opponent because…because he was fighting corruption.

    He convinced 74 million Americans that the coronavirus is Democrat hoax.

    He convinced 74 million Americans that the coronavirus miraculously will disappear in April 2020,

    He convinced 74 million Americans that we betrayed Kurds fighters because they didn’t help us in WWII on Normandy landing.

    He convinced 74 million Americans that we need herd mentality to fight the coronavirus

    He convinced 74 million Americans that windmills cause cancer

    He convinced 74 million Americans that to fight the coronavirus we need to take injections with disinfectants and expose ourselves to the UV light

    He convinced 74 million Americans that he lost 2020 elections because of fraud.

    Yes, Trump is a f***en GENIUS!

    Trump kicked the Afghanistan can down the road, because he lacked the courage to do it himself., He timed the Doha agreement so that the next president would have the problem. Well, Biden is the only president who had the courage to do something about it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
    Lucifer likes this.
  12. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    37,773
    Likes Received:
    14,565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My goodness I set off a veritable firestorm and all over a simple disagreement.
     
    joesnagg likes this.
  13. Darthcervantes

    Darthcervantes Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2018
    Messages:
    16,906
    Likes Received:
    17,149
    Trophy Points:
    113
    How many Biden defense threads are you gonna make?
    We get it dude
    Aphgan lives don’t matter to the left
    We understand
     
  14. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2019
    Messages:
    9,281
    Likes Received:
    2,780
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I think the general consensus was and is in favor of withdrawal. That wasn't Biden's problem. His problem was to ensure it was done smoothly and secured the safety of U.S. citizens and our allies in leaving. In this, he failed. The U.S. deserves to know why. Was it intelligence failure or incompetence?
     
  15. Big Richard

    Big Richard Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2021
    Messages:
    2,437
    Likes Received:
    2,645
    Trophy Points:
    113

    You all guessed it. Orangeman bad
     
  16. Big Richard

    Big Richard Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2021
    Messages:
    2,437
    Likes Received:
    2,645
    Trophy Points:
    113

    More Orangeman bad
     
  17. popscott

    popscott Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    Messages:
    17,753
    Likes Received:
    11,876
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Biden has been politicin’ 120 years, him and Obama had 8 years to fix the problem… but here we are trying to cover up Biden phuster cluck of a move…
     
  18. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2019
    Messages:
    9,281
    Likes Received:
    2,780
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You forgot Bush (at least 4 yrs) and Trump (4 yrs). Politicizing this will do the United States no good.
     
  19. Noone

    Noone Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2021
    Messages:
    13,534
    Likes Received:
    7,982
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think he explained "why", very well yesterday. "I" think, that after 20 years of preperation, training and equiping the Afghan Army everyone thought they would be able to stand up for themselves for at least awhile. At the least much longer than it would take for the transfer of power and evacuation of U.S. Citizens. That the Afghan's didn't exemplifies the need and justification for the U.S. to leave.
     
    Lucifer likes this.
  20. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2019
    Messages:
    9,281
    Likes Received:
    2,780
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm not questioning what I believe was a U.S. consensus regarding withdrawal (although that is another issue). I am questioning the competence in planning for that withdrawal.
     
  21. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2018
    Messages:
    26,999
    Likes Received:
    11,049
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How about doing it with a bit of planning?
     
  22. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2020
    Messages:
    10,343
    Likes Received:
    10,711
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Although the Doha agreement was in Feb, 2020. Trump probably thought he'd win at that time?
     
  23. popscott

    popscott Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    Messages:
    17,753
    Likes Received:
    11,876
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Oh no you don’t…. Bush didn’t have Biden as a VP , Obama did….. it should have been taken care of then by Biden and Obama…instead Biden us running his mouth pointing at other people now….
     
  24. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2019
    Messages:
    9,281
    Likes Received:
    2,780
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It should have been taken care of in Bush's second term. Instead, he diverted forces to Iraq and accepted NATO help in Afghanistan, and allowed it to evolve into a "nation-building" exercise, which failed. The four presidents (Bush, Obama, Trump and Biden) share the blame...Biden owes the country an explanation for the messed-up withdrawal, but I want to hear from Pompeo as well. For instance, why did we agree to release 5,000 Taliban prisoners BEFORE our withdrawal? And, from Austin, why was the withdrawal date moved from May 1st to September 11th? If the Biden administration just "forgot" about the translators, et al, they need to be fired.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2021
  25. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    37,773
    Likes Received:
    14,565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Disagree. He should have apologized for the disreputable activities of his administration instead of deflecting blame. It doesn't take a rocket science to understand that, if you are going to leave, then abandoning the air base as a first activity is backward. This could have been done in winter when the Taliban are holed up in Pakistan. None of it made any sense. It was incompetent. Did he explain that? I ask because I couldn't get past the 5 minute mark of his prepared speech. It was all nonsense.
     

Share This Page