AMA Says Transgender Patients Don't Need Surgery To Change Birth Certificate

If the genitalia which normally tend to identify the gender cannot be used to identify the now abstract concept of male and female because we have moved towards the more abstract concept of "depending how you feel about it", then considering the genitalia have now been rendered irrelevant by the progressives I think it would be more practical to let your chromosomes define whether you're male or female rather than moving the other way towards increasing irrelevancy of abstraction.

 

This is absolutely ridiculous. A person is either female or male.
The AMA has become screwball.

 

Until transgender is on the census or on the a license it is just touchy feely hogwash. Even then it will only get on there due to political correctness.

 

Agreed...

 

Begging the question I see, please provide you scientific proof that it is just a feeling, because the scientific evidence supports that it is in fact hard wired into the brain during development.

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Please provide your scientific evidence that it is in fact a mental disorder?

 

and of course this completely ignores the scientific fact that the mental gender of a person is fixed AFTER the physical gender is.

Physical gender is fixed upon fertilization, mental gender is not fixed until the brain has developed, changes in hormone levels during the brains initial development can hard wire a different mental gender to the physical gender, so it is no more a mental illness than being left of right handed, and as it is the brain that controls us the physical gender is irrelevant.

 

Its the same old problem with people who ignore the brains influence on who we are, they think that a physical trait is what makes you what you are.

I'd suggest researching the effect hormone changes during fetal brain development have on the mental gender of a person .. but I know it would be a wasted effort.

 

nope it will be based on sound scientific research which has already shown that can be a marked difference between physical gender and mental gender.

The fact that so many people fail to even do the research in this only shows their opinion is based in nothing more than prejudice.

 

Nope. It is not prejudice it is simply accept fact. Even in your post you do not refute it. A biologically born male is a male. Their mental feelings and images of their true self are irrelevant to this biological FACT. A man can have a sex change operation and this still does not change the FACT that the male is still a male, sort of, but not a female. It is just a fact. If you feel better by attacking people and using the Liberal 1 - 2 Punch by attacking the person instead of the idea then that is fine. It is by default a defeat and a logical fallacy to boot...

We should base our beliefs upon reason, rather than on emotion, if we want our beliefs to be true.

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-pity/

 

It certainly is prejudice if you ignore the current scientific research which shows that our gender is far more than what happens to be between our legs.

Refute what, that the physical gender is set upon conception, of course I am not going to refute it .. however .. that does not negate that the mental gender is as important, if not more so, than the physical gender. You talk of refuting things so please do refute that the mental gender hard wired during gestation is a major factor in what gender a person identifies with.

Again nothing I am disputing .. so a strawman on your part.

That is just an opinion with no scientific evidence to support it . .where as there is scientific evidence to support that mental gender is very relevant to what gender a person really is.

Only if you base that assumption on the very narrow physical attributes, and as it is our brains that make us who we are to disregard that is disingenuous on your part.

Again not one I have disputed.

Really ... attacking ... lmfao .. it is based on the observation of the people here, the way they comment and there total ignorance or willful denial of mental gender.

ah yes the usual cry of winning from those who cannot defend their prejudice.

BTW: Did you spot your own fallacy?

 

Neither the AMA nor the APA define "mental gender". Did you make that up because I can't find it from anything reputable...

I don't care what a person identifies with. They can identify with the opposite gender and that is fine. That does not make them that opposite gender though... it is a mental disorder. One that need not be negative though. There are a number of disorders out there that are not negative and that do not degrade a person for who they are.

Not a straw man because I never said you were trying to dispute it. It is just a fact.

Psychology is the new religion. There is nothing scientific about most of it... a person could be born gay or molested at a child and that changed their emotional and psychological image of themselves. There are any number of reasons why people are the way that we are and all psychology does it make best guesses, try to define people and lately, to make people feel good about who they are. Nothing scientific about it.

I have been to therapy and the best therapists get you to look inside and attempt to understand yourself. There is no right or wrong about it.

I don't believe that our brains have anything to do with our actual gender and nothing that I have read, and certainly NOTHING that you have said, leads me to think otherwise.

Asked and answered...

Like I said... the typical liberal thing to do. You have an opinion and if people don't agree they are prejudiced. It is no better than Eric Holder and the President continually making arguments that people that oppose their positions are racist... instead of just being against their policies. It is pathetic.

MOD EDIT>>>BAITING<<<

 

Really dude?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

 

Really dude .. from your own supplied link

Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different than the one they were assigned at birth may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains, or prenatal exposure to hormones

and even the rest of your link doesn't support your mental disorder fantasy.

epic fail on your part.

 

Epic Fail????

Its a freakn mental disorder, it say so in the title.

Do you understand what youre reading?

It doesnt matter if they have a mental disorder based on genetics, or PTSD from getting raped, its still a mental disorder

 

Yes glad you agree

does it .. please show me where it states "mental disorder" in the title that reads Gender identity disorder?

and again I'll point you to an extract from your own link - Evidence suggests that people who identify with a gender different than the one they were assigned at birth may do so not just due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics, the makeup of their brains, or prenatal exposure to hormones - the items highlighted are not mental disorders but physical disorders, and a lot of specialists feel that the mental issues arise from the problems people have of accommodating their different mental gender from their physical gender, and the stigma they receive from other people and has absolutely nothing to do with their actual mental gender itself.

also from your own link - The current medical approach to treatment for people diagnosed with gender identity disorder is to support them in physically modifying their bodies so that they better match their gender identities, an approach that conceptualizes them as having a medical problem that is corrected through various forms of medical intervention - again a physical medical problem, no mention of a mental problem.

and still more from your own link - The DSM-IV-TR diagnostic component of distress is not inherent in the cross-gender identity, rather it is a result of social rejection and discrimination. Dr. Darryl Hill insists that GID is not a mental disorder, but rather that the diagnostic criteria reflect psychological distress in children that occurs when parents have trouble relating to their child's gender variance.

Transgender people are often harassed, socially excluded, subjected to discrimination, abuse and violence, including murder

It would seem I have read and understood what I am reading far better than you have.

nope it is not.



GID is not even the correct medical term, that would be Gender Dysphoria

 

Are you serious? You actually responded again with the same proof, you previously ignored? Really?

If you want to cut off your penis, cause you feel more like a woman, than your freakn nuts.

Theres nothing wrong with your penis, your supposed to have it. Youre a man

 

correct

let's review what's been said

biology gives you a penis

you later on decide that you want to be a girl. You are disagreeing with biology and nature. It's no different than thinking you can jump from a building and fly

Those are mental disorders. it's not a negative slap. It's simply recognizing that your wiring is broken and needs fixing. Medication might help as might counseling.

The problem is that progressives are pushing to normalize all deviant sexual behaviors as opposed to treating them.

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perhaps a little crass in the words, but 100% spot on

 

you mean the link you supplied but didn't bother to read that shows your assertion to be wrong.

still caught up on the physical gender mantra I see, what part of a person having no control over their mental gender do you not understand, or is it that you choose to ignore the research that shows that our mental gender is formed and set AFTER out physical gender, and that our mental gender can be effected by varying levels of hormones while our brains develop and thus causing a mental gender opposite to physical gender.

Personally I call it as I see it, and that would be wilful ignorance on your part.

for me nothing wrong with my penis, but then my mental gender is aligned with my physical gender .. not so much for some people.

It is absolutely ridiculous to even suggest that what we have between our legs controls what gender our brains are.

BTW : It is noted your attempt to switch away from the topic at hand.

 

nope it is not

you mean you want to place your bias onto what has been said.

correct.

nope, wrong yet again .. it is not something that a person can "decide" to be, what part of it is hard wired into the brain during formation of that brain while still in the womb do you not understand.

No it isn't because there is nothing that can effect your brain during it's development that could make those thoughts part of who you are .. mental gender is set during brain development, it is not something that a person "decides" at a later date .. I'm sorry the science eludes you, but then that is your failing not mine.

sigh, more of the same mantra without a single thing to support it apart from your own ill conceived opinion.

What pure BS

 

No, Its not wrong, and It supports my assertion that people who want to mutilate their genitalia, have a mental disorder.

 

simply put, it doesn't support that at all.

In fact in the whole article there is only one sentence that points to some people believing it is a mental disorder - Some researchers, including Dr. Robert Spitzer and Dr. Paul J. Fink, contend that the behaviors and experiences seen in transsexualism are abnormal and constitute a dysfunction - and of course that is what you focus on, ignoring everything else in the article because it doesn't fit your assumptions.

 

Mental gender - is described as a Hermetic concept which relates to the masculine and feminine principles. It does not refer to the physical gender of someone, nor does it suggest that someone of a certain physical gender necessarily has the same mental gender

So no I didn't "make it up", it is the easiest way to distinguish between physical gender ie the actual physical presence of male or female genitalia and mental gender ie the gender set during brain development.

I suppose a better word would be trans-gender and/or gender Gender Dysphoria.

It is no more a mental disorder than you being left or right handed is.

Unless you classify every single deviation from the "norm" - whatever normal means as it changes all the time - then to pick and choose what to decide as a mental disorder is purely arbitrary.

Yep it is because the physical gender is not the topic being discussed.

Except that mental gender is not based in Psychology it is based in biology.. I certainly have no disagreement with you that molestation can have an effect, that however does not negate that during brain development within the womb hormone fluctuations can, and do, have an effect on the way the brain develops.

Our brains have nothing to do with our physical gender, that is set at conception .. but it is not the physical gender that is being discussed. There is plenty of research to show that the way we think of our mental gender IS the product of the physical development of our brains.

The problem as I see it is that people cannot, or will not, separate the physical gender of a person from the mental gender, the research done shows that they can be direct opposites to each other and the person does not have any choice in the matter.

Oh I see, just like you assume that I am a Liberal based on my comments .. pot .. kettle .. black, springs to mind, and I have no problem with people disagreeing with my "opinion" - though with the actual research I would offer that it is a little more than an opinion - though to disagree with my "opinion" surely there should be some evidence against it . .do you have any?
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I understand the concept of what you are implying. Mental gender... not physical gender. Mental. Not physical. I simply can't find a reference to it at reputable sites like the APA and AMA.

... that said, what happens in your brain is chemical. It has physical properties. But I understand your meaning.

These are the terms used by the AMA and APA.

It certainly is. You yourself made the differentiation between mental and physical. Being left handed is physical. You specifically said that we are talking about "mental" gender. Being trans gender might not be a mental disorder per the APA but that is 100% debatable. Psychiatrists can make best guesses but they are not dealing with a car. The wheel is off, that is why you are swerving left, kind of thing. It is best guess. It is like being a teacher and why it is so difficult to judge how well they actually teach... the product is a human being and there are a myriad of issues that effect the out come of the learner.

Trans-gender used to be a disorder and I think it still should be. Look, I had ADD. Attention Deficit DISORDER. I see it as normal as perhaps 20% of the population has traditionally had this. I have heard it argued that racism should be classified as a mental illness since there is nothing inherently wrong with any race, to be racist is illogical and a disorder. I think that it was used as an insanity defence once.

You want me to agree that it is not a disorder? Well I won't. That does not make me prejudice. I don't have an issue with trans-gender people and used to work with some and went to gay and trans-gender parties in Laguna Beach and San Francisco... both gay havens.

I am discussing it so no, it isn't. I also clearly said that you are not arguing the physical aspect. Just deal with it. It was not a straw man.

Fusing psychology and biology:

http://www.apa.org/monitor/nov00/biopsych.aspx

Agreed. It is still a disorder to think you are a woman when physically you are a man.

I don't think that most people care nor do they think that the "research" is valid.

I have no idea if you are Liberal. I said that the tactic was Liberal.

I am not sure about talking about the rest as I have no idea what that Mod Edit means...

 

There may not be a direct reference to it, but the information is all there.

Yes it is .. however .. what causes those chemical reactions is already pre-set and has been since the brain started developing.

I prefer mental gender as it does not imply any form of disorder, but if you can step away from the association that it is a mental disorder then I have no problem with using these terms.

I am talking about whether you can choose to be left or right handed, choice is not physical it is mental - if you want to be totally precise then you could say that the chemical and electrical reactions in the brain are physical, the point I am making is that those reactions are set during the brains development.

The programming (for want of a better word) is set during brain development if it wasn't for the presence of testosterone all males would have female brains, it is testosterone that makes our brains male and as such our thoughts male, remove or decrease the level of testosterone during that critical period of brain development and it influences how male our brains become. research has been done, admittedly in rats, where high levels of testosterone were introduced artificially during the rats pregnancy, the female offspring were found to display a much more aggressive and male type behavior than those rats born with no interference, the opposite was found in the male rats when the level of testosterone was reduced artificially, they displayed behavior far closer to female rats than male. The same process of testosterone influence on human brains is a known factor.

It is only classified as a disorder because it doesn't conform to what the majority think is normal, and yet normal is not a fixed quantity it changes, what is abnormal today could be normal in 50 years time .. history has plenty of examples of where something was considered normal and is now not, the same for something considered abnormal and is now not eg. Slavery was considered normal, now it is not. Woman not being equal to men was considered normal, now it is not . .even pedophilia was considered normal, now it is not. To classify something based on arbitrary conclusions formed by what people think is normal is a flawed ideology. Just take a look at the whole homosexuality issue, 75 years ago it was a crime punishable by imprisonment of which the majority of people agreed with as it went against what they considered normal .. now the tide is turning as more and more people begin to accept that homosexuality is a normal human condition. sure there are people who cling desperately to the mindset of those 75 years ago, but ask yourself is that any different to those who clung to mindset that the black man was less human, or that women were of lower status?

for me physical gender and mental gender are two separate issues.

Interesting, haven't seen that reference before. All I can say is that the psychology element is a result of a biological one.

and I disagree with that estimation .. it is only classified as a disorder due to the perception of what others think of as normal and as already shown normal is fluid that changes. Normal is nothing more than a social construct.

then they are basing their opinions on prejudice and assumption.

Look, all I am asking of you and any other person who disagrees with me is to provide the research that shows what I have been saying is wrong . .so far that has not been forthcoming .. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but in order to dispute what I have been saying they need to provide evidence against it.

Apparently one of the MODs felt that part of my response to you was flamebait and as such they edited my post, that is what the MOD EDIT thing is.

 

Oh, thanks for the MOD EDIT explanation...

Regarding the rest, I don't think that we vary really that much to be honest. I agree about your "What is normal is a social construct" and was just saying the same thing on another forum, in fact. In the end, we both seem to agree that transgender people can be as good and beneficial to society and people as heterosexual or homosexual people can be and that there is nothing inherently wrong with them. We both agree that they see their sexual identity as different than there biological one. We both agree that the physiological patterns that lead their mental image begin in the brain. The only difference I see between us is that you think that, apparently, all this indicates that they are as psychologically sound as whatever "normal" would be. I disagree. My disagreement though does not mean that I think that they have some horrible issue. They have an issue as does my ex-wife with her BPD. There is something going on in their brains that others have with other psychological issues that lead them to think that they are perfectly healthy when in fact they are not. Lastly, I am only arguing for debate's sake... with regards to transgender people as people, I could care less what their self-identity is as long as people are kind to people and benefit society's forward progress.