Americans/Europeans are going to have to switch to a new paradigm

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by kazenatsu, Apr 7, 2020.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Americans and Western Europeans are going to have to switch to a new paradigm.

    If you look at a lot of the immigrants who come to our countries, they live in multigenerational households - many people under the same roof.
    That is because in the poor countries they come from, it simply is not financially pragmatic for each individual person to be able to afford their own separate living space.
    Not even their own car, in some cases.
    When one has to make due with less, you have to share.

    This flies in the face of traditional American culture that values independence, and expects young adults to be able to go off on their own and get their own place.
    This may not be something the economies in Western countries can support any more.

    Americans/Westerners will have to adapt or perish.

    Family cohesion is going to have to start becoming more important, and families are going to have to find a way for everyone to live in harmony under the same living area. Because the alternative may be poverty and homelessness.

    I could relate to you countless anecdotal accounts that demonstrate this.

    There was a mansion on my grandma's street, formerly built by a Maharaja that had fled from India in the 40s, fearing for his safety. Many decades later, the character of the entire neighborhood and city had changed. Most of the white people and middle class had left. Many parts of the city looked like a miniature version of Mexico, there was visible homelessness on the streets and poverty. (This was long before the 2007 Recession before it was common to see homelessness like that)
    So who would buy and live in this mansion? Well, it turns out, sometime around 1990, four Vietnamese brothers, all them doctors, decided to get together and live in the mansion.
    This seems odd from an American perspective. If you are well off, typically the last thing you do is keep living with your extended family in the same house. But for the Vietnamese, this was a common thing to do, they were very accustomed to that living arrangement. Their elderly mother lived with them too.
    If it had not been for those four Vietnamese doctors deciding to buy the mansion and live together, it stretches the mind to be able to imagine who else would have been able and willing to buy the place.

    And I seriously doubt four brothers from an American family would have been able to get along all living in the same house. Remember, each of these brothers had a wife, and their own immediate families.

    In the local apartment complexes, it was very common for Mexican immigrants to jam pack the place. In several of the small two bedroom apartments, there were 10 people living there. Two bunk beds in each tiny room, and someone else sleeping on a fold out couch.
    There was one 2-bedroom apartment where 6 Chinese men were living together. And again to emphasize, these were just standard apartments on the small side.
    In some situations, there wasn't enough room for beds in each room, so the immigrants slept on mats on the floor.
    Now, one might ask, didn't the leasing office have a problem with this? Well, no, the rent levels were very high. Basically by allowing so many persons to live in each unit, they could get higher rent levels.

    In these days, and especially in many parts of the country, young adults cannot really afford to move out on their own into an apartment anymore. It just simply is not financially realistic, or sustainable. Some of them who do try only make it for a limited period of time before they are forced to boomerang back their parent's house.
    The younger generation is squeezed between high housing costs and low wages. I have seen more than a few homeless young people around where I live.

    I think the problem is we are applying conventional American expectations of the past onto the present. We have to adapt to the present reality, if our families and offspring are to perpetuate. And we have some very good examples to look at, with the Hispanic and Vietnamese immigrants.

    It's time we face facts. Instead of putting your old mother into a nursing home, she is going to be sleeping next to you in the same bedroom. That is what immigrant families do. And that is illustrative of one of the type of things they do to save money. Or when your aging father gets too old to work, he will live at your house and watch your small children. That way you don't have to pay for childcare.

    These American ideas of independence and moving out of your family are not going to work anymore. Instead of complain, adapt.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
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  2. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like more hard right anti-immigration crotch rot. There isn't an economic paradigm that snugly fits America and Europe. We do, however, have a clear problem with Anglo Saxon capitalism which encompasses the UK and the US. Reliance on poverty pay as the main source of economic rent is no longer sustainable. The current pandemic crisis has illustrated that. Workers, often living below the living wage, are suddenly realised to be essential.

    To use right wing anti-immigration claptrap to justify the reproduction of anti-labour outcome hopefully will no longer be tolerated.
     
  3. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    KILLER PLAGUES

    You are painting a very drab picture of the post Covin-19 plague. And I don't think it correlates with history.

    Of the previous plague (from here):
    And from CDC (Center for Disease Control), Reported Cases of Human Plague - United States, 1970-2018, believe it or not the a graphic history of plagues in the US:
    Reported Cases of Human Plague - United States, 1970-2018 - excerpt:

    [​IMG]
    Which shows (rather strangely) how plagues seem to be central to one corner of the US west, and entirely in the west. (And I find no explanation of the strange outcome in the text.)

    The singularity of the present plague is that it seems to cover a far larger expanse of the US than any previous plague since 1970.

    Going further back in history, the cadence seems a bit quicker, as shown herebelow. Note in the graphic that the 20th century's largest plague previously was in 1909 with deaths reaching around 190,000:
    [​IMG]

    So, anyone thinking there cannot possibly be a repetition of such may be in for a great surprise.

    Note also that prior to 1909 and again in 1920 as well as in 1984 there were loses that reached 40, 000. These "plagues", with the unique exception of the present one, were not unknown but of a lesser killer-potential ...
     
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nothing could be more anti-labour than mass immigration.

    You might look up the famous quote by Alain de Benoist.
     
  5. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Well-Known Member

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    So because people have different ideas about how the US should work, that means a paradigm shift? I'm okay with that claim, it's what countries do. Countries change based on population.
     
  6. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You might want to try evidence to break through the myth. Immigration does not impair wages. It is merely used to hide from the real villain: neoliberalism. It isnt immigration which drives a wedge between wage and productivity. It is an economic system geared at maximising the power of capital. Countries with high immigration, and high levels of trade liberalisarion, do not experience the same working poverty experienced by the US. Think why. There is no need for right wing knuckle dragging. Its because they have the institutions, such as effective collective bargaining, to ensure fairer wage determination. Indeed, it also enhances labour (given we see greater skills formation with the protection of labour rights).
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
  7. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    False dillema, mass migration is anyway just another face of neoliberalism.
     
  8. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    WHOLLY UNFAIR INCOME TAXATION IN THE U.S.

    Labor is half the duality in any economic system of Supply&Demand. The "Demand" for goods/services sparks its "Supply" by companies that employ workers to provide them.

    This "economic intimacy" on behalf of both-members of the Supply&Demand equation has existed for centuries, though most often inequitably. The question is not whether the "economic mechanism" is fair and equitable. It is not in the US. It is unfair because those who control the Supply of products/services are allowed (by means of too low taxation) too much of the Net Income in return.

    The answer to that question is defined by the mechanism employed to determines the Tax Laws. That is, the Executive component of the country. After all, it was Donald Dork who decided two years ago to lower upper-income taxation to provoke his buddies to donate to his reelection committee.

    Such manipulations are well-known in LaLaLand on the Potomac and will continue to be employed for a long as there is no law against them. Taxation is a key matter of national governance not just on the part of the PotUS but of both Chambers of Congress as well. There must be common agreement ...

    And, of course:
    *Citizens should understand as well - by means of a proper Civics Education - that the "balance of political power" can be manipulated by one or the other major-party in any two-party system of governance (as exists presently in the US). This happens when one or the other party obtains a clearly dominant control of either
    or both the HofR and the Senate. Which is why a truly multi-party system leads itself less to major control of political-power in any governance in which it exists. And,
    *The fairness of Upper-income taxation must be considered in any truly democratic country in order to assure fairness and equitability in the generation of Net of tax Income. Because what exists today looks very unfairly like this below in America.
    [​IMG]

    Meaning this: Average Upper Income tax-rates clearly need doubling in American at the above $100K-level of individual taxable income (shown above). Which is a level considerably higher (about double) the median individual-wage (presently at about $50K/year). Whilst taxation at 12.7% is far, far too low.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2020
  9. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Not true. Neoliberalism refers to market fundamentalism. Immigration doesn't matter. It only purpose, within neoliberalism, is to give a fake 'blame' for an economic paradigm automatically geared towards labour exploitation.
     
  10. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Immigration is a great way for neoliberalists, with free trade agreement to put everyone on a harsher concurrence.

    Furthermore, it's a great tool to break the mind of both the local population aswell the incoming one. "Dividing to better rule". We could furthermore notice that a part of the politicians have an interest into having migrants, as migrants vote mostly for one side, so it's a way for them to dominate the country.
     
  11. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Its a red herring. First, immigration does not significantly impact on wages. Wages are already reduced through labour market flexibility, which necessarily minimises labour's bargaining power. Second, immigration will often go hand in hand with countries who do not adopt neoliberal practices (at least in domestic markets).

    Those rambling on about immigration are looking at the wrong problem. It is merely indicative of how easy it can be to blinker people away from the real problem.
     
  12. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Justification ? Furthermore, you're speaking as wages are the only problem on earth.

    Wages are determined by a lot of factors. It would be long and maybe even impossible to list them all. By the way laws play a role, but the offer and the demand play a role. The more there is people asking for a job, and the less available the job would be, the lower the wages would be. Mass immigration increase the demand for a job, when the offer may increase, but not as much. With such a configuration, it would be unfavorable to a joob seekr.

    "The" real problem. Again, a false dillema. We're living in a big complexe world, with multiple causes.
     
  13. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Wages demonstrate how immigration is used/abused as a non-issue. It cannot explain the wage-productivity gap, despite the hard right rants otherwise.

    Irrelevant ramble. The analysis into the impact of immigration of course controls for factors such as human capital and compensating differentials. These effects just do not exist.

    I'm not the one trying to oversimplify it to "its them immigrants fault". I'm referring to the nature of the Anglo Saxon paradigm and how it feeds off labour exploitation independently of any immigration effect.
     
  14. VotreAltesse

    VotreAltesse Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    @Reiver 1) I never pretended it's all immigrants fault, just pointing the impact of immigration. 2) None of your claim are proved. The fact you says that immigration don't impact on wages don't make it a reality.
     
  15. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    I'm happy for you to present evidence to show otherwise (given most schools of thought refer to the importance of bargaining power, which are necessarily focused on aspects such as collective bargaining according to labour rights). Try to make sure its quality hypothesis-testing evidence where immigration effects are isolated. Good luck!
     
  16. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Newly Registered

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    Any "new paradigm" will have to be based upon life and not materialism. Otherwise, there's nothing new about it.
     
  17. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, there's also those pesky housing prices in the cities where the job opportunity is centered at...
     
  19. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    The overreliance on housing tenure is also the result of wage distributions, with home ownership used as self insurance. It also encourages a dysfunctional market, with housing bubbles created through speculation and wealth inequalities corrupting the rental market. Well done in attacking his effort!
     
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wow, that sounds like the fallacy of composition again.

    Yes, of course if everyone else is doing something that's cheaper and is competing against you, you have to do that same thing too.
    This was true during plantation slavery, and it is true with low wages. I'm sure some businesses would love to pay their workers more, but how can they when the competition is paying less?

    (The fallacy of composition, in case you are not aware, says what is true for the parts does not necessarily hold true for the whole)
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
  21. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The average family wage in the US is very close to $60K per year (as shown here). Which is hardly plantation slavery levels. America does have two Income Challenges nonetheless:
    *Raising lower income rates to $15 per hour (around $31K per year) and
    *Lowering drastically far too low Taxation of upper-incomes.

    And, honestly, to understand that the Industrial Age is a key part of American history, but is history nonetheless. The Information Age is upon us, so it behooves the nation to provide its youth free or nearly-free Tertiary Education (depending upon family income). That is, just like Uncle Sam did at the beginning of the 20th century for Secondary Schooling!

    You must try harder. Like getting/showing the factual evidence to support your suppositions ...
     
  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You realize the difference between average and median, don't you? The median is only a little more than half that. Median gives a much better impression of what is "typical".
    LafayetteBis, I know you know better.

    Wow, sound like circular logic.
    "It is, because we are doing it"

    It's only history because of intentional government policy, most of which goes back to Bill Clinton signing free trade deals (over the objection of many Democrats at the time, by the way).

    A lot of ignorance in that one. As an industry, the Information segment of the economy generates only a tiny fraction of the revenue that Manufacturing once did.

    It just so happens that's one of the last places in the economy these days where really good jobs are at. But they are not really a lot of jobs, relative to the size of the economy, and they are mostly very concentrated in just a handful of big cities.

    And we see how, these days, the Information segment of the economy is being gradually outsourced to other countries, just like Manufacturing was several decades ago.

    Does it really behoove us, when so many college grads are already struggling to find good paying jobs that justify all the education they went through?
    We already know many of them can't pay back their student loans. Guess it wasn't such a great investment for them after all?

    Tell you what, how about we make all student loan borrowers pay high interest rates to cover those who will default on their debt?
    You claim it's such a good investment, so why wouldn't you be for that?
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
  23. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Tut tut, median is a type of average. Mode and mean being the others.

    I blame the education system ;)
     

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