Americans outsourcing their pollution to China

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by Anders Hoveland, Nov 21, 2011.

  1. Til the Last Drop

    Til the Last Drop Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Protectionism is an economic term. And being that off shoring is paying for the Chinese military build up of the new millennium, you should all be ashamed of yourselves. You are advocating the build up of a threat to be the killers of your own grandchildren. The out of control growing wealth gap in the states walks hand in hand with fiat currency/free trade. The shrinking middle class walks hand in hand with fiat currency/free trade. The shrinking demand of our national economy walks hand in hand with fiat currency/free trade. I have faith the nationalism of a globalized rightist will awake at some point. An international leftist will applaud America's fall. All those gains you make by selling out your own people are the honey on a world government trap, taxcutter. And when world "democracy" comes, with 6 billion people inherently pro-big government, you will not escape the socialism that fallows.

    There was a time when business owners were loyal to their communities. I'm not just talking Henry Ford making sure his workers got paid enough to buy his cars. I'm talking my great grandfather. In the depression he ran the local grocery store in Roy, Utah. For the 6 years he stayed in business during the hard times, he borrowed over 50k to make sure every house had food on their tables. 50k in the 1930's was a fortune. He never got paid back, and was happy to do so. Took him another 20-30 years to pay off that debt to keep people fed. Yes, being a business owner is about working so hard you're the 1st family on the block with a washing machine, an automobile, a telephone. But it is also remembering where you come from and the neighbors you love. The neighbors, regardless of economic status, who will be on the ship in a great war next to you if the time comes. Wake up, taxcutter. I can't make this plea to the international leftist, I can to you. Wake up.
     
  2. MannieD

    MannieD New Member

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    I think I get it now. Another poster looking to bring "the good old days" back. Sorry! Those days are gone. "Nothing's ever gonna bring'em back."

    Are you confusing globalization with free trade? They are not the same.

    And explain how protectionism will be good for our economy? You do realize we export to the rest of the world, including China? Would you be willing to let the industries that export go bankrupt?
     
  3. Til the Last Drop

    Til the Last Drop Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The jobs off shored are manufactured luxury items. Even with tariffs, those that are strictly labor oriented or extremely bad for the environment would stay because of the pay scale and environmental regulations would make it worth paying said tariffs. Some would come home, and more money would be generated for the government without needing to tax the public more. Not to mention foreign companies wouldn't be able to drive out American business like the Japanese did with electronics and are on their way to doing with automobiles. We have to pay tariffs when sending goods into places like South Korea or India, and places like China have many forms of protectionism themselves. This is not a two way street we are talking about, and even if it were, they don't have half the market for luxury items we have with all of those countries combined. No time soon will their people getting paid 200 a month be able to buy vacuums, or Barbie dolls, or kitty litter boxes, etc. We don't have a trade imbalance with China, we have a trade imbalance with our own elite. The great majority of what we export to them is ag, and ag is a protected industry. So there goes that dumb argument. You know none of the details to which you're talking about, you're just regurgitating basic stuff you heard someone else say. I can smell types like you from 100s of miles away.
     
  4. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

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    Til The Last Drop posted:
    "I'm talking my great grandfather. In the depression he ran the local grocery store in Roy, Utah. For the 6 years he stayed in business during the hard times, he borrowed over 50k to make sure every house had food on their tables. 50k in the 1930's was a fortune. He never got paid back, and was happy to do so. Took him another 20-30 years to pay off that debt to keep people fed."


    Taxcutter says:
    In the 1930s the government was not the implacable enemy of business it is today. With all that debt he probably paid little in the way of income taxes. There was no EPA. There actually few agencies he ever heard of. Today's counterpart has to deal with dozens of agencies, often with conflicting requirements. For your grandfather getting a construction permit took a couple hours. Today, for some businesses, permit require more than a decade.

    "I'm from the government and am here to help." instills terror because it always brings miles and miles of red tape.

    The overbearing government came at the will of the people. The people who your grandfather sacrificed for have stabbed today's busuness people in the back. Given today's realities I doubt your grandfather would have done the same thing.
     
  5. Til the Last Drop

    Til the Last Drop Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually, it was my great grandfather. Income tax came in 1913, but his generation refused to pay it after world war one, and the government knew they had every right not to. So they never enforced the rules with his generation, they just went after my grandfather's. My grandfather told my mom the greatest mistake his generation made was not fighting income tax, with rifles if necessary. He knew the precedent, not just the tax itself, was the ruin of the nation.
     
  6. SiliconMagician

    SiliconMagician Banned

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    Now I see where it comes from. A long line of neo-confederates who think they don't have to follow anything they don't agree with, even when it is a legal Constitutional Amendment.
     
  7. Til the Last Drop

    Til the Last Drop Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thanks for showing all your "conservatism" is as shallow as a made in China kiddie pool. My family fought for the union against the south. Many died. Basically, take your ill informed history and self righteousness and shove it up your ass.
     
  8. Sadanie

    Sadanie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And yet, Gallup polls just came out with the news that the Chinese population is MUCH MORE INTERESTED in protecting their environment than Americans are. . .in fact, they are more interested in protecting their environment than they are in the economy. . .once again, unlike the Americans!

    Could it be that we, Americans, will wake up to the need to protect our environment only when we have allowed our greed to let big business dirty our country the same way as it has in China. . .almost to the point of no-return?
     
  9. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

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    If the Chinese want to clean up their environment by crushing their economy, that is certainly their choice to make.
     
  10. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

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    Today we have an IRS every bit as fearsome as the NKVD under Stalin.
     
  11. mamooth

    mamooth Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What prompted that whackaloon statement? Was it the brainwashing of your political cult, or is it deliberate dishonesty?

    Given the stupidity of the statement, and the way it's presented as fact instead of hyperbole, I don't see any other options.
     
  12. Taxcutter

    Taxcutter New Member

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    Ask Al Capone about dodging taxes.
     
  13. JoakimFlorence

    JoakimFlorence Banned

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    I can't believe how stupid so many progressives on the Left were. They ranted about industrial pollution to no end, their politicians drafted endless environmental regulations. Well guess what? They finally got rid of all the industrial pollution in their country--and all their country's industry as well ! While they were so busy passing regulations, they let neoliberal conservatives have their way and outsource production to other countries, completely bypassing environmental and labor protections.(*)Here's the reason why Green Peace was so active demonstrating against the Free Trade talks, which not many seemed to take much notice of at the time.

    Now we still have pollution, just "not in our own backyard". But CO2 is still CO2 and it doesn't matter where it's produced. None of this stuff would be being made if it wasn't for the fact Europe and America were paying for and importing it. In many cases these are American companies operating factories in China. Environmentalists have chosen to dump their problems on the Chinese (and other developing countries) rather than deal with it at home.
     
  14. perotista

    perotista Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hmm, yeah. Most of the coal we mine today is also sent overseas. It is not burned here to help make this country energy self sufficient, But in several countries across the globe. It helps those countries maintain cheap energy for their industry and manufacturing while our cost for energy goes up and up and up driving more and more businesses overseas. We burn less coal, the rest of the world more.

    But hey, it makes us feel real good about our ourselves while we lose job after job after job.
     
  15. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If the US were truly committed to reducing CO2 in the atmosphere (all of it) we would eliminate unnecessary CO2 regulations in the US as well as other regulations (such as ObamaCare) and tax reform (eliminate taxes on production). This would reduce the cost of production in the US and would result in more manufacturing being done in the US where it is done "cleaner" than any place in the world. It is again an amazing lack of intelligent analysis by the US left resulting in the exact opposite of what is desired.
     
  16. lynnlynn

    lynnlynn New Member

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    You would be surprised how many small to middle size businesses in the U.S. are actually owned by foreigners. We cannot solve pollution but it is better for U.S. citizens to have those companies that produce a lot of pollutants to be in other countries.
     
  17. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How many are owned by non US citizens ?? And no, it is not better. Pollution in the US is controlled and if the gov imposed costs of production were minimized those businesses could compete and provide wealth for US owners and employees.
     
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  19. sawyer

    sawyer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You miss the point. We put such burdens on our companies with taxes and regulations and union contracts that they just got China and then China pollutes the world and pays slave wages. If we had reasonable regulations,taxes and wages these jobs could stay home and be done right.
     
  20. sawyer

    sawyer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They are interested because they are chocking to death on smog and dying from polluted water
     
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  21. eathen lord

    eathen lord Active Member

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    China is apparently outsourcing work to Africa because they are moving on from manufacturing and into consumerism.
     
  22. ChristopherABrown

    ChristopherABrown Well-Known Member

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    The WTO with GATT and NAFTA are destroying nature.
     

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