An abomination...

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Ctrl, Mar 21, 2013.

  1. thebrucebeat

    thebrucebeat Banned

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    I guess for me the reason is unimportant. I have known gay people all my life and believe they were always so and never chose it, so the rest doesn't matter.
    In the end, both of us land at the same place. Treat them with as much love and grace as you would anyone else. We have been charged to love. Judgment is above our paygrade.
     
  2. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In my friend's case, being a 10 yo boy w/o a father who was befriended by an adult male who took their equivalent 'father-son' relationship to the sexual level, my friend was 'sexually imprinted' at that young age as in loving a man meant being sexually attracted to him.

    My friend was not effeminate (could have passed for a "poor man's" Tom Selleck and had a 'gentle spirit' about him) but was a creature of his early sexual experiences that he couldnt 'shake off,' even when trying to live a hetero life and having a wife & child, as a sincere Christian. In his case, his wasnt 'genetic' as in 'born that way.'

    My point is that what is 'sin' and what sins are unforgivable? Whether he had been genetically that way or a product of a pedophile who did love him as a father but abused their relationship, Where does he end up within the body of Christ? Always in denial of his sexual identity as he had been programmed as a youth? Does pointing fingers at him (and others like him) or condemning such help him in his life as a follower of Christ?

    Bottom line is: "If he wasnt demon possessed/oppressed, WWJD to deliver him from 'his flesh?'
     
  3. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He was sinned against. His life, ultimately, was stolen from him by that man (assuming all that you say is an accurate representation). How is that NOT sin? Your friend's responsibility is mitigated by the abuse he suffered (and yes it was abuse even if they "loved"). Still--it led him to kill himself! A sin of despair. God have mercy on him. I believe God does have mercy on souls so tortured. HOWEVER--that does not make the act of homosexual sex any less sinful.

    INDIVIDUALS, and their individual circumstances, are judged by God, but it is fair to describe a behavior objectively as a sin. The Potter knows the clay he used to form the vessel, and he decides what can be expected of it.

    Love the sinner, hate the sin is absolutely possible, and it is Christlike. Just look at the story of the woman caught in adultery--he saved her, but then told her to "go and sin no more."
     
  4. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    Well then, what I am saying is that everyone on my list just got twisted up in the fall.
     
  5. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Agreed, whether it be 'nature' or a result of the fall of man, 'they' are here, and what do we as Christians do with them??

    EDIT: 'paygrade?' Most ppl will 'judge' for free? [​IMG]
     
  6. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We all did, didn't we?
     
  7. prospect

    prospect New Member

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    Yup. :)
     
  8. thebrucebeat

    thebrucebeat Banned

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    Ain't that the truth!

    Loving is all the burden we can handle, and we don't handle it well (and that includes me!).
     
  9. Felicity

    Felicity Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't deny my sins are sins, though....I repent and look for Mercy.

    Luke 18
    [13] But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, `God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
    [14] I tell you, this man went down to his house justified
     
  10. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Adultery was a choice and not a innate trait (what had become the nature of the individual). Jesus also said 'Your sins are forgiven' when He healed some ppl instead of saying 'Be healed.'

    What was Jesus teaching when he said 'You who are w/o sin throw the 1st stone." Stoning was 'legal,' as per the law and w/o restrictions! Jesus taught forgiveness & love in dealing with the sinner. And "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

    I'm afraid if one reads the posts on this thread of those who are being legalistic vs. those who offer grace, they will see the former as being as modern day Pharisees (as in hard hearted religious ppl) and the latter being more Christ like (as in the attempting to walk in the grace of the Good News)....

    Holding up a Standard vs. beating ppl with it are not the same...
     
  11. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This topic reminds me of the analogy of the 12 millions illegals in this country, as in "They're Here?"

    1) The Pharisee would say, "They broke the law send them all back to Mexico, regardless of circumstances & hardships" (i.e. children born here, duration of legal habitation, etc.)

    2) The reasonable person who 'respects the law" would say, "Look at all cases, offer grace as in work permits & opportunity for citizenship, but deport/imprison the criminals."

    Hard to believe knowing how 'slimy' you are! [​IMG]
     
  12. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    I cannot answer that question with certainty because I would be sitting in judgment of his soul. If he truly had accepted the Lord as his savior, I would imagine that he would be an equal even with those that were not affected in like manner. All Christians will also be punished for their misdeeds after becoming a Christian. Supposing that he had declared that the Lord was his master and he was the servant:
    "Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
    Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. "


    Read my paragraph above. No, it would not be right for others to sit in judgment of him. Looking back at what I previously posted, I see that I did not point a finger at any particular individual.... but will now clarify to prevent any further misunderstanding: My comment was for those who want to say that they were 'born that way'.


    My personal belief on that question would be this: If the person is truly a follower of Christ, then that person will not engage in such activities.

    Command the malignant spirit to be cast out. Read Mark 5: 1 - 14
     
  13. thebrucebeat

    thebrucebeat Banned

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    So a true follower of Christ would be perfect?
    Would a true follower reflect the Fruits of the Spirit?
    If they don't, are they a false Christian?
     
  14. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Doesnt 'warsh' as many Christians have their own 'pet sins' of which are by choice and not as a result of early programming as a child.


    I'm familiar with casting out evil spirits, but not everything is a spirit as such, as 'spirit' also means 'attitude.'

    And we still have desires of 'the flesh' to contend with..unfortunately, we cant 'cast out the flesh!"
     
  15. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Not understanding the term "warsh", I will take the risk and answer the question like this: Yes, Christians (just like anyone else) have their "own 'pet sins'" (I prefer the phrase 'thorn in the flesh').



    "attitude" would be the manifestation of a 'spirit'. The cause of the attitude being a spiritual influence.

    No we cannot cast out the flesh, however, the 'flesh' problem starts with the mind. Other than the autonomic functions (smelling, breathing, heart beat, batting of the eyes, etc.) any other thing that the body does, it does so through the instructions of the conscious mind. Therefore, in order to strike someone in the face (example) you must first think about it. It is the thinking about it where the casting out would come into play. You would find yourself face with a choice... strike or no strike... sin or no sin. The mind being like a garden, and you are the gardener; you remove the bad weeds so the crop of food can grow.
     
  16. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Obviously, you dont speak 'Texan." I speak 3 languages myself: English, American & Texan

    'Officially,' Paul's thorn in the flesh refers to a messenger of Satan to buffet Paul with persecutions & afflictions where ever he went:

    2 Corinthians 12:7-11

    7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch.

    8 Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

    9 And he hath said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my power is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

    10 Wherefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in injuries, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.


    We are to follow the Spirit and therefore will not yield to the flesh. It is the 'perfect' man, altho we are not there and will never get there on this earth, but we are being 'perfected."

    Paul also talked about his struggle with "what I would do, I do not; and what I would not do, I do." (King OD xlation)
     
  17. thebrucebeat

    thebrucebeat Banned

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    Paul's "thorn" is never identified, and many have speculated that Paul was gay. It would explain his celibacy, his admonition not to get married, and his nature as a zealot, whether it was when he was killing Christians or planting them. His self loathing pushed him to be self righteous, regardless of which side of the debate he was on.
    Total speculation, but not unsupportable.
     
  18. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your 'cemetery,' er I mean seminary, brain washing is speaking....it's plain and simple per the scriptures..a messenger of Satan to buffet him with persecutions & afflictions where ever he went! I dont get why ppl make it so complicated when it has always been plain to me b4 any 'brain washing of men' as having read it for myself!!

    btw, the 'story' I heard was vision failure as in another epistle he mentioned 'see how big of letters I'm writing,' which was in fact his way of "emphasizing" what he was saying!!!!

    Dead 'religion'has struck once more.........[​IMG]
     
  19. thebrucebeat

    thebrucebeat Banned

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    I also have heard the vision speculations. Also credible. And it also could have simply been for emphasis.
    The fact is, either is possible. What the afflictions are that Satan burdens him with are not named. Their origin (Satan) is identifified, but not their manifestation.
    What does seminary have to do with it?
     
  20. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Btw, Bruce, was your denomination the "Church of the Quartz Crystal?!"

    Paul talked about 3 types of Eunuchs: man made, self made, and God made---he was 'God made' as all his focus was in spreading the Gospel and he had no desires!

    Man made would be thru castration, and self made would be as a priest thru denial of the natural..
     
  21. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It sounds like 'old school' in trying to justify Paul not walking in 'divine health' as such! Why cant you see "persecutions & afflictions where ever he went?!!!!"

    Bruce, I'm disappointed in you .....
     
  22. MrConservative

    MrConservative Well-Known Member

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    In our day and age it's common to believe if a man becomes a celibate priest, something is wrong with him, he's not happy, or he must be gay. It's not surprising that some people may come to the same conclusion with Paul.
     
  23. thebrucebeat

    thebrucebeat Banned

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    Why do you find naming those afflictions as incompatible with that scripture? Whether he had a burden of homosexuality in a world that would not accept it, or whether he had poor vision, either could be characterized in the biblical context as an affliction.
    Really not following your point.
     
  24. thebrucebeat

    thebrucebeat Banned

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    I don't feel that way at all.
    But Paul's behavior, both before and after conversion, is that of the zealot. He is not your rank and file celibate priest. Paul is haunted by this secret burden of his, and it is so heinous he refuses to name it.
    I'm not saying he was gay. I'm saying the question is interesting.
     
  25. OverDrive

    OverDrive Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The 1st time I read this (on my own!) I didnt see a 'physical character flaw' as some would like to teach, but a way to inhibit the 'spiritual character flaw' of glorying in himself by way of trying to tamp him down with continual persecutions!!
     

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