Anselm's Ontological Argument for the Existence of God.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Channe, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    Are you in the USA?
     
  2. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Sí, how could you tell, hombre?
     
  3. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Looks more like you are far too busy playing victim since nothing that I said expresses or implies 'what' an atheist 'should' believe, despite your trying to sell that mal-framed package as the case. There is no discussion with you after several pages of posts, just rerun repeat.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017
  4. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    I'm more than happy to discuss faith, justified belief, assumptions about reality and ignorance at any other time but, at the moment the question is why it seems important to you that atheists comply with what you say they should believe, why is that?
     
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  5. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't, that's why I asked rather than guess.
     
  6. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Thats your paint job on the matter.

    I keep correcting you to bring you back to the actual point being made and you simply pull out your spray can and paint it with your strawman, and in case you dont comprehend what that means, it means 'that is not my argument' if you feel it is my argument prove your point, but from past experience we know you will simply repeat rerun the same strawman garbage ad obnoxiously infinitum.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  7. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds more like the theist point of view, including yours. Just cannot comprehend that other may truly not have a belief in a supreme being. All other beliefs are no relevant to this discussion.
     
  8. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Well-Known Member

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    Nice try to attempt to say that any belief is a belief in a god. The atheist merely believe that there is no god, yet you try to spread this lack of belief to all other areas of life. Extremely dishonest of you, not to mention a false belief system.
     
  9. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Seems thats not what I said, you are quoting me adding your fantasy then accusing me of being dishonest. Pretty lame strategy, especially when you repeat what I have said countless times, that atheists believe there is no God. The dishonesty is that atheists who believe there is no God with even less proof than the theists as in zero, point their fingers at theists ridiculing them as having no proof, thats the black pot calling the kettle black.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  10. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Well-Known Member

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    Actually I am attempting to pull you back to the subject of the thread, which you have long abandoned.

    Your attempt to dictate what others truly believe and your version of "truth" leave much to be desired. You should try comprehending what others say instead of telling others what you believe they believe. Would eliminate your "lame strategy".
     
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  11. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Your claims are bogus on every level.

    Dictate, really? Seems atheists do not know the difference between dictate and 'observe'.

    If I observe a person who runs over another with a car, I am not dictating anything by stating the obvious, your problem is you borrowed rahls paint can, and want to paint your groundless definitions over anything that disagrees with your politics.
     
  12. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    You have corrected nothing, you tell me that I don't lack belief, I tell you that I do so, justify your assertion about what I believe.

    I know why you want me to believe what you say I do, typical apologetic posturing.

    I'm more than happy to discuss faith, justified belief, assumptions about reality and ignorance at any other time but, at the moment the question is why it seems important to you that atheists comply with what you say they should believe, why is that?
     
  13. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    If I tell you that I lack belief what else are you observing that tells you otherwise?

    The question is why it seems important to you that atheists comply with what you say they should believe, why is that?
     
  14. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Well-Known Member

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    Yet, with this response, you attempt to dictate what another believes, in spite of your denial.

    You have no proof of anything that you have posted but that does not seem to stop you from "dictating" what you claim others are saying.

    Poor debating skills on display by you.
     
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  15. RoccoR

    RoccoR Well-Known Member Donor

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    RE: Anselm's Ontological Argument for the Existence of God.
    ※→ Kokomojojo, Arjay51, William Rea, et al,

    The is getting confusing. Why is it that an "atheist" has to have a belief? Why would anyone go around thinking about nothing? The "atheist" does not have a belief system about nothingness because the "atheist" does not think about that which does not affect the environment. The "atheist" does not believe in a Supreme Being because it is NOT.

    The Conclusions (made by most "atheists) are not based on a belief system (or religious conviction); but is held an acceptance of a practical truth or in the difference between interaction and no interaction. In fact, most "atheists" and "agnostics" don't think about something that (in their mind) exhibits no practical evidence of existence. You might compare an "atheist" to the outside observer. You see a box on the table...

    What do you think first about its contents?

    There could be anything in the box! BUT THEN →
    Erwin Schrödinger tells you that there is either a cat inside the box, or the box contains nothing (no cat). All you observe is that there is no evidence of the box moving, no sounds coming from inside the box, there is nothing unusual about the box that would make you believe a cat is inside the box.
    What do you think?
    Your first guess about what is inside the box, based on what you observe --- would (probably) not be a cat. In fact, you don't know if the box contains anything. It was Schrödinger that implanted the suggestion of a cat being inside the box.

    Generally speaking, when normal people see a sealed box, if they have a question at all, it is: What is in the box? Without thinking about it, their mind assumes something is in the box.

    I opened the box, and there was nothing in it. → Schrödinger smiles and asked me: why did you not believe your observations? There was no evidence of the box moving, no sounds coming from inside the box, there was nothing unusual about the box that would make you believe a cat was inside the box.
    Humanity is geared to look for proof (reduce the probability). I opened the box because it would prove definitively that the condition was either CAT ⇔ or ⇔ NO CAT. But the universe, and all its many components and characteristics, is like the box. We want to look inside to see what we can see (the thrill of discovery).

    I don't think about the existence of the Supreme Being until the person with a religious conviction plants the suggestion and asked about the possibility of the existence.

    Just My Thought,
    R



     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2017
  16. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    The Flibbertybob is real, I have experienced it.

    Did you consider the existence of the Flibbertybob until I just asserted it?

    Does my assertion of the Flibbertybob change the fact that you lacked belief in it before I asserted it, and can continue to do so after I have asserted it and provided no justification for it?

    Just because I can pull stuff out of my backside and make claims about it does not place any burden on you to do anything more than reject it and continue to lack belief.
     
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  17. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    well we dont know whats all up your ass so it might be very real, care to tell us more details about it, since you can pull it, its obviously not supernatural and has to be physical. So this bob thing you have in your ass what does it look like?
     
  18. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Are you asking why anyone with cognitive abilities has to believe? Simple, belief is binary, you either believe yes or believe no. There is agnostic of course with there is [yes is unknown AND no is unknown].

    Then the atheist fits the definition of religion quite well.

    NOT what?

    Yes,no, beliefs create the conclusions, think I belief jack not Jill. Conclusion Jill lied. Binary.

    I think you are looking for something that is purely physical, that you can touch and hit with a hammer. Can you hit an electron with a hammer, yet you believe electrons exist.

    yeh sort of inapplicable see above.

    Sure we all do that.

    I dont think about the existence of an electron though it is purely physical, and the existence of the electron can only be shown by its effect, you cant reach out and hit it with a hammer
     
  19. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what it looks like but, it is pure love and you can't understand it unless you believe that it exists. It is beyond our knowledge and our Universe and the only way that you can know it is to experience it. the Flibbertybob is real and clearly above your pay grade. I don't have enough faith to not believe in it.

    Your response kind of backfired on you didn't it. That's the problem with politicised religion masquerading as 8th grade philosophy, it is easy to pull apart and satirise.
     
  20. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    But you cant pull anything supernatural out of your ass and you said you can pull it out of your ass, more like 1st grade philosophy worshiped as real time atheism. Seems you need a few upgrades, at least do a better job pretending you comprehend what you are trying to sell.
     
  21. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    Desperate, just desperate.
     
  22. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    I notice you didn't respond to my contention that a disbelief in something is equivalent to a belief that something does not exist. You don't believe in the tooth fairy, either, but there's no logical distinction between that statement and the statement that you believe the tooth fairy does not exist. It's still a belief either way. You believe 2+2=4, you disbelieve 2+2=5, but it's fair to say that you believe 2+2 does not equal 5 in the same way. I believe God does not exist. Can you not say that with equal assurance as your statement, "I don't believe in God"? What is the distinction between, "I don't believe," and "I believe it not"? How is a lack of belief different from a belief in lack? If you say, "I don't believe it," you are simultaneously saying, "I believe something else is the truth." Aren't you?
     
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  23. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    No. I lack belief in the positive assertion. Saying I have no good reason to believe is definitely not the same as positively and with intended meaning, asserting that I don't believe. The distinction is not subtle.

    The reason I believe that 2+2 does not equal 5 is because, by definition, it doesn't. In that case we are not even talking about evidential balance of probability because it is a definitionally true statement.

    The tooth fairy is an example used to demonstrate how theists special plead for an absurdity. I rarely hear them discussing maximally great tooth fairies. And yes, that was satire.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
  24. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    So you're suggesting you're agnostic rather than atheist? And if you lack belief in God's existence but aren't willing to say that God does not exist, don't you also lack belief in God's non-existence?
     
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  25. William Rea

    William Rea Well-Known Member

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    No. That 'God' does not exist. No.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017

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