Antisemitism: Subset-Superset Fallacy

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by ibshambat, Aug 17, 2019.

  1. ibshambat

    ibshambat Banned

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    According to some people, the problems of the world are caused by the Jews. They appear to be of the impression that without the Jews the world would be a better place. Here's something to ponder: America has nearly 6 million Jews, Poland has about 800. And yet America, not Poland, is the greatest power in the world.

    One trick I've seen these people play is actually quite clever. They would take a wrongdoing that had Jewish participants and blame the whole thing on the Jews. They did it with slave trade, with Stalin's crimes, with human trafficking.

    The error that they are making is what is known in mathematics as the subset-superset fallacy. That some Jews are jerks does not mean either that all Jews are jerks or that all jerks are Jews. Most of these wrongdoings included both Jewish people and non-Jewish people. As for the Jews, they also include people such as my mother - who has never hurt anyone – and any number of great contributors, from Albert Einstein to Steven Spielberg to Donald Rumsfeld to Ayn Rand.

    That there were Jewish participants in a wrongdoing does not mean that the wrongdoing was authored by the Jews. Once again, most of these have had both Jewish and non-Jewish people. As for the Jewish people presently living, even in cases that there have been Jewish participants in wrongdoings, they have had nothing to do with it themselves. Many white people do not like being blamed for their ancestors' colonialism and slave trade. They need to lead by example and stop blaming contemporary Jews for the actions of Herod or Caiaphas or any other wrongdoer who happened to be a Jew.

    If the point is that some Jews are bad people, that point is correct. But to claim that all Jews are bad, or that without the Jews the world would be a better place, is ridiculous. I know many Jewish people of great character and great intellect, who very much do improve the world with their actions. And they most certainly contribute more than do people who spread obvious falsehoods.

    Are the Jews at the root of what's wrong with the world? Jews did not create the mafia or the inner city gangs. Jews did not invent the Taliban or Westboro Baptists. Jews did not cause global warming or gender war. Throughout humanity there have been many orders, and most of them had many things wrong with them. And most of these orders had no influence from the Jews. So if someone thinks that the world would be a better place without the Jews, they can look at Somalia, Pakistan and any number of places that have none to minimal Jewish influence and that are in much worse shape than any place with a significant Jewish presence.

    Whereas where Jews are not discriminated against, they do great things. Over 100 Nobel prize laureates are Jewish; which, for a small population, is a great achievement. And also great are their contributions to science, finance and entertainment. Jews have been the most highly contributing constituency to the Western civilization; and someone who actually believes in advancing the Western civilization will pay homage to the Jews.

    If you've been involved in the contemporary anti-Semitism: Cut your losses and do something productive. The legitimate aspects of your message – that not all Jews are good people – have been heard. But don't go around making ridiculous claims such as that all Jews are bad or that all bad people are Jews. And do not be under impression that the world would be a better place without the Jews. The Jews contribute vastly to the Western civilization and should be credited for what they do.
     
  2. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    For the most part, this form of anti-Semitism still goes under a cloaking device these days. We end up fighting over the Middle East and Palestine as a substitute proxy . Everyone pretends opposition to Israeli policy = anti-Semitism, and anti-Palestinian views = a sympathy for Jews. Everyone forgets that Israelis themselves of all religions disagree about the exact same policies that we debate everywhere else.
     
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not quite true, the origins for much of modern-day feminism stem from jewish female intellectuals. Without them, the character of the feminist movement would have been completely different and resembled the Woman's Suffrage Movement, being more mild and not militantly focused on social/family change.
    These were women who left the jewish community, or with only weak ties to it, so this is not related to religion.

    You really have to point to Africa or muslim countries to make your point, don't you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  4. ibshambat

    ibshambat Banned

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    Catherine McKinnon and Naomi Wolf, to the best of my knowledge, are not Jewish. I am not sure about Andrea Dworkin.

    I could just as easily point to Cambodia or Peru.
     
  5. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Please post the list of names of both Jewish and non-Jewish females at the origin of much of modern-day feminism.

    His point being that places without Jews are faring worse than places with sizable Jewish communities, seems only logical to point to those countries where there are no Jews. These countries happen to be mostly in Africa and Asia.
     
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, muslim countries where jews face open persecution are worse than other countries in the world. Is there some sort of point to that fact?
    Then we have Africa. Are we supposed to believe that because no Jews moved there that's the reason they are poor? Really?

    (Actually there were some Jewish vineyard owners that settled in Africa, but they have pretty much been run out of there along with all the other whites. White business owners are not looked upon so well in Africa.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  7. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    It's the other way round. Jews don't move to those places because their regimes are dictatorial and repressive, xenophobic, paranoid, afraid of their own people. We see such regimes all over the Middle East and Africa. Repressive regimes and tribal societies don't make good homes for minorities.

    Due to frequent, violent persecutions during centuries of being an inferior - mostly unprotected - minority in the Christian and Muslim world, Jews have learned that knowledge and professional skills are way more important than any worldly possession. The latter it's impossible to carry while running for one's life from an enraged mob and can be easily taken away, while the former sticks with the owner wherever in the world they happen to be thrown by chance and persecutions. That's why Jews tend to be middle class - the driving force for progress - and intellectuals - the driving force for social and cultural changes. Places where these two categories are lacking, or repressed, can't move forward. That's why it seems like absence of Jews is the cause for some countries backwardness, although absence of Jews is of course not the cause, but the effect of such backwardness.

    Japan and South Korea are doing fine without Jews (although the study of the Talmud went viral in South Korea).
     
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  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No, that's just part of the fallacy.

    Israel doesn't get a pass on its war against Palestine, its foreign policy or it's form of apartheid just because they are a Jewish majority.

    And, objecting to those policies is certainly justied due to the fact that WE directly support those hugely problematic policies.
     
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  9. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    Just to be crystal clear, I completely agree with the above. You and I are very likely on the same side on Israeli occupation and policies. Anti- Israeli and Anti-Semitic are fundamentally different. What I meant in my reference to Israel/ Palestine being a proxy debate, is that Real Anti-Semites prefer to talk about Israel as well, because they can exploit Israeli policy as a way to promote their much broader agenda of stigmatizing and stereotyping using the most world renown subset of Jews ,without taking quite the same the risks traditional anti-Semitic statements may incur. I do not mean to imply that most people who share our views are anti-Semitic, or 30% or 20%... But that anti Semites use statements similar to yours and mine, as a way to safely try to gauge their audience for more.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree there is a serious risk of being perceived as anti-Semitic when confronting the foreign policy issues that are abysmal and that WE support. And, it gets even riskier when discussing policy that is totally internal to Israel.

    I think people miss that Netanyahu barely won his election.

    There are plenty of people in Israel who aren't in favor of his policies for what appear to be the same reasons I'm not. And, that's been true of my Jewish friends here as well - but, not all of them!!
     
  11. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Saying "Yahweh" out loud to the face of a practicing Jew is a form of antisemitism because it is a flagrant disregard for the holiness of the creator's name. Using the name liberally could easily get you to take God's name in vain. Jews prefer using his title Adonai as opposed to his name Yaweh.

    But you know what? I don't care. I will continue to say Yahweh out loud and call the God of the Bible and Christianity Yahweh. Even some Christians find me offensive when I do that. The reason I do that is to make a point that their imaginary friend does not scare me. So religious people (both Jew and Christian) can utter curses and threats of hell all they want. Yahweh does not scare me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand this approach at all.

    I've never seen any kind of progress come from butting heads over religion.

    BTW: If a Jew doesn't like speaking that name, then he's like my Baptist mother.
     
  13. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Why do you think "Yahweh" is the Jewish name for "God"? It's obviously not, since it's in English.

    There's no hell in Judaism.

    Jewish law doesn't apply to non-Jews. Nobody expects you to follow Jewish law or customs.
     
  14. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Yahweh is the closest way to accurately uttering the tetragramaton. There is a hell for evangelical Christians. Jews will curse people for flagrantly violating the holiness of "The Name". They might say Yahweh's wrath will strike me.

    Jewish law does apply to gentiles when they are in Israel. I obviously won't look for trouble by going there, but not following Jewish law outside Israel is just showing how insignificant it is and hence how un great God is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  15. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Let me be clear about something: I'm not an anti-Semite in the sense that I think they are a threat to the well being of others by their presence in society and must be removed.

    I just mock the absurd belief that they think they are blessed by DNA to inherit God's "first blessings" or "first seats in the kingdom" in other words the "chosen people".
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  16. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how - if at all - did ancient Hebrews pronounce the tetramagraton, but the issue of the Jewish god's name is far more complex today. Secular Jews routinely pronounce one of the seven sacred names of God in its actual form, even though it's forbidden by religious law, without being cursed or otherwise bothered by the more religious. I don't know what would happen if one goes into a synagogue publicly proclaiming antithetic beliefs (or lack of belief), but I spent time with religious Jews in their homes and nobody ever told me I have to behave or speak in a certain way, although I clearly did not follow their customs. I'm an atheist.

    The religious Jews I know are mostly Orthodox, mainstream, not extremists like the Neturei Karta, which are a minority. Maybe you encountered one of those extremists. They are despicable, hateful, intolerant, violent, Middle Ages kind of people.

    Israeli law applies to gentiles in Israel, not Jewish law. I live in Israel, I don't follow Jewish law. My Christian relatives living in Israel don't follow Jewish law either.

    Nowadays, with so much information flowing freely, using one's fingertips is all it takes to shed old prejudices. Certain DNA is not required to be chosen, not even to earn seats in the kingdom.

    First thing first. "Chosen people" doesn't mean what you think it means. Ancient Hebrews were not chosen to be God's favorites. God gave Jews more than 600 commands, scattered throughout the Torah, to be strictly followed. Jews were chosen to follow all these commands, unlike gentiles who were given only the seven laws of Noah. God needed a people to do all the six hundred something dirty jobs for him, chose the Hebrews, made a covenant with them, and turned them into a priestly kingdom. That's the meaning of "chosen people" - priests of God. Anyone can become a Jew - a priest of the Jewish god - regardless of DNA.
     
  17. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Then why aren't religious Jews offering the option, I get that the option is there but that it's not being offered to me to become a Jew? Why do people who have Jewish blood under more encouragement to join the priestly kingdom?

    If I were to enter a synagogue or talk to an Orthodox Jew (one of those men in black with the big hats and curly sideburns) and say "I want to convert" they would probably look at me as if I were crazy.

    Theoretically could a non practicing Jew (somebody with Jewish ancestry) proclaim that he/she is a gentile?
     
  18. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    Yahweh means "I am" in Hebrew. It was God's reply to Moses when Moses asked God who he was in the Burning Bush. At least they told us that in Sunday School (or maybe that was in 'The Ten Commandments". It's been a while)

    (I like the philosophical implication there, that all existence is really a figment of God's imagination)

    Isn't God called Jehovah?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  19. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    They don't think that. Being God's Chosen means he has Chosen them to show the rest of us how to live as God wants us to. It's a burden, not a blessing. It's still silly but kinda cute seen that way.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
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  20. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Judaism is not missionary. It once was, not as aggressively as Christianity or Islam, until conversions to Judaism became a threat to early Christian leaders, leading to persecutions, segregation in ghettos and separate Jewish quarters, expulsions, pogroms, forced conversions to Christianity. Antisemitism was originally a mix of fear, greed, intolerance, ignorance, and religious fanaticism. Today it's just a deep-seated tradition.

    It is possible to become a Jew today - harder to become Orthodox Jew, easier for those seeking to convert to reform Judaism.

    "All of Israel [all Jews] is Responsible One for the Other" is an old Jewish saying, meaning that every Jew answers to God for the sins of other Jews. That's the main - but not the only - reason why Jews are encouraged to follow the Jewish law.

    One other reason is the belief that our actions - Jews and gentiles alike - are helping God repair or improve the material world (tikkun olam). Keeping the laws and commandments - 7 laws of Noah for gentiles, over 600 commandments for Jews - is what prevents the destruction of the world (in Kabbalah).

    Nope. Those men in black with big hats would ask you why you wish to become a Jew. Your answer would determine whether you'll be accepted as a candidate or not.

    https://www.thejc.com/judaism/rabbi...but-i-don-t-want-to-upset-my-parents-1.458105

    Conversions to Judaism are taking place today.
     
  21. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Sigh. Here:

     
  22. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    And Yahweh means " I am who am" according to Wiki.

    So God is Popeye?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  23. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    God told Moses to tell the sons of Israel that "I am that I am" sent him to them. Not sure this refers to the tetramagraton, as the form used in this particular context is different.

    God has many names in the Tanach, Hebrew names. Jehovah is not a Hebrew name.

    From an atheistic point of view, there are in the Tanach traces of many gods who have joined forces, so to speak, to become the one and only Jewish god, so questions about the original meaning of the tetramagraton should be answered by scientists in the relevant fields.
     
  24. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    OK but you did not answer my last question. If Judaism is not a matter of DNA, why do non practicing Jews still call themselves Jews? An atheist like myself from a Protestant background holds the title of Christian with a LOT less significance than atheist Jews do.

    If a Jew were to convert to another religion, would that make them a gentile or would they still have to carry the "burden" as another poster put it of being "Jewish"?

    Then by their own theology, their family would say God will punish them with persecution and poverty the same way Christians say people who leave Christianity are going to hell. I suppose there is no difference there so that's one reason why I'm not religious.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
  25. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    I've read that a Jew has to (gently) discourage you from being a Jew three times, (I think, it may be more) After that he has to refer you to a Rabbi. The Rabbi will instruct you in what is necessary and devise tests for you to pass. It will probably not be easy.

    After that, if you are accepted, it is forbidden to ever bring the matter of your being a convert up ever again. The idea is that you were born a Jew and just somehow got non-Jewish parents, but you were a Jew all along.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019

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