Any logic hounds out there? Is this a true statement?

Infinity isn't a number. It is a concept. It can't get any bigger even if you add two infinities together. And it can't get smaller because it wouldn't be infinite. Even if divided by 2.

 

But the statement doesn't require 'to me' for it to be true.

All that is required is that 'all that is possible'.

If you say copies will be made, then nature allows it, then such is inevitable, fulfilling the postulate's premise.

"I" have nothing to do with it. The statement is not anthropocentric, or self centric.

No?

Caveat, this is my layman's logic, which, no doubt, is limited.

Maybe some math or physics guys can show me the error of my ways.

 

We really do not know if the universe is finite or infinite.

However, it's not relevant to the question, the question assumes it, i.e., 'given infinity'.

It's true in the abstract, where all math questions reside.

 

No, because the statement assumes it, i.e., 'given infinity'

So, the question must be looked at through the premise it sets up for itself.

 

Sure it does. Our experience of reality, as subjective as it is, is a real thing. Even if a copy exactly like my reality exists somewhere, plenty of possible things do not happen because they did not happen in my experience. It's not inevitable that I will die of heart disease just because I could. But if there really are infinite universes, it's probably inevitable that somewhere, sometime, there's an alien exactly or almost exactly like me who does because he broke his foot and stopped going to the gym as the only variation, or some infinite combination of small factors like that. The number of variations of universes required for that is simply mind-boggling, just for one person, but that's how infinite is.

 

Sure. All things would be possible. That was one of the parameters set up by the OP. The other parameter is that all things are inevitable. This is the part that is false.

 

Three dice? You might get unlucky and they'll NEVER show up.

As long as you are talking about "chances", there is always the chance that something will never happen. That's why your condition "inevitable" makes your statement false.

I'm not looking at this through a mathematician's eyes. I'm looking at this through the lens of logic.

 

The OP says that IF it is possible, it is inevitable.

It says NOTHING about things that aren't possible.

Also, "possible" doesn't refer to human knowledge of our universe. It refers to the universe itself, whether or not our understanding of the universe is true or complete.

So, things that WE THINK are possible or not possible are irrelevant, because human knowledge is incomplete.

 

I haven't spoken about things that are not possible and I haven't spoken about human knowledge at all.

I've only said that nothing is inevitable.

 

That is an error of logic. You are not infinite, so your personal circumstance does not invalidate the statement.

If you said 'you, having everlasting life, though perishable by disease only noting that disease, for you, is possible, therefore, given infinity, your death by disease is inevitable.

That is the only way to frame it, to concur, in form, to the essential statement:

'Given infinity, all that is possible, is inevitable'.

See, given infinity, if it is possible that some people will die of heart disease, it is inevitable.

Therefore, thus far, the statement is viable. Not seeing a refutation from you thus far.

Again, the statement is not dependent on the physical reality of an infinite universe, which is unknowable. It is, or I think it is, propositional logic (?), whereby 'given infinity' means that for the purpose of the math statement, infinity is assumed. But I will qualify it to mean time in linear terms, though I do not see how more dimensions changes the equation (and it is beside the point).

Again, what is true for a small number is true for a large number. Why? Because all numbers are small compared to infinity.

If you had 3 dice, and tossed them for an unlimited amount of time, is it assured that you would inevitably get all sixes?


If you tossed them for 100 years, the odds are 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% that you would.

that is't absolute, but in the universe, absolutes are unobtainable.

The point is, you are technically correct, but it's only a technicality because of the axiom that absolutes are unobtainable.

If that is true for 3 dice, it is true for any number, because compared to (time linear) infinity, all numbers are infinitesimal.

Note that I gave a finite number of 9s passed the decimal. Actually, compared to infinity, the number of 9s passed the decimal
would also be infinite, would it not?

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but if that is true, then even the 'technicality' of the notion that absolutes are unobtainable' is a meaningless statement given that the slightly less than 100% fractional percentage is infinite, as well, noting that one could apply the 'absolutes are unobtainable' to any seemingly perfect math equation. Right?

 

See #135

The statement is an intellectual exercise, and the domain is in the abstract.

You can't use the physical universe to falsify the statement because infinity in the physical universe is unknowable. In the abstract, it is knowable.

'Given infinity', for the purpose of the intellectual exercise in the abstract domain that the statement presumes, is assumed.

The point is, I'm only asking if the statement, according to it's own terms, is true or false. And, on 'infinity' I mean 'linear time' because time linear is knowable and therefore I didn't see the need to qualify it. But, we do know of dilatable and warped time, and even there, not sure if these invalidate the statement.

Yes, no?

 

Always interesting Patricio. For my part I don't think this question is answerable by logic.

Looka here cousin, imagine it's like this.
Let's say thatcha drain lake Cumberland and fill er up with shine.
Now that's just about an infinite about of shine, for your own drinkin purposes anyway.
But let's say you got a spare silo you ain't usin and get the idea that fillin up that silo with some shine from Lake Cumberland would last both you and your mammy forever, so you do.
Now, there's still a whole lake full of shine, and you now have an infinite personal supply of shine as well.
Supposin your West Virginny hated neighbors sneak over and grab some of that shine out of Lake Cumberland and fill up a silo they've converted to a lifetime supply for their use, but they get greedy and lazy and also kinda industrious at the same time by converting two silos and one of them they fill by stealing all the shine from your silo.

Damn Hatfields!

So your previous infinite shine is gone to the Hatfields and you are correct! Infinity minus infinity equals zero, but not compared to the bigger infinity still lapping the shores of Lake Cumberland - hope this helps.... hahaha....

 

From #135: "in the universe, absolutes are unobtainable".

Yet, you use a term that IS an absolute: "inevitable".

Your statement..."Given infinity, all that is possible, is inevitable."...is false.

 

Your fractional percentage of it not turning up all sixes subject to the terms of the equation is a decimal followed by an infinite number of zeros chasing
the number one that never happens.

Therefore, it's true. Infinity, gives a slightly different hue to 'guaranteed' and 'inevitable'.

No, it's not guaranteed, nothing is in this world, but, as a practical matter ( the operative phrase) it's inevitable.

Your death is inevitable.

Is it gauranteed? No, someone might come up with a forever pill and you might stave off accidents forever, who knows?

But, as a practical matter, it's inevitable. With such a pill, your death isn't guaranteed, but it is inevitable.

As a practical matter.

So, if you want to nitpick on 'gauranteed' an 'practical matter it's inevitable', be my guest.

See, the point is, all sixes will turn up 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 with 9s into infinity % of the time.

That is a enough time to allow, given infinity, the large number of factors for life to occur at random, because life is possible.

What is true for 3 dice is true for any number, because compared to infinity, all numbers are infinitesimal.

And we know life is possible.

Is it possible that life could never happen?

It's possible, but that hasn't been the case, has it?

And this is the reason I made the postulate.

It's TRUE ENOUGH to explain life. And that, really, is the only reason I made
the postulate.

At least it is, to my layman's mind.

For me, it's more logical than to justify life being created by an intelligent designer, which makes no sense.

 

When dealing with logic, words matter. You either don't fully understand the meaning of the word "inevitable" or you want to assign your own meaning to the word. This pretty much makes any discussion useless.

Good day.

 

The answer to your OP's query, logically, is "false." This should be obvious, from your foundational assumption, "given infinity." Yardmeat & Lucifer picked up on this basis of action, offering unlimited opportunity to physically evoke, the "possible." Like you, however, they failed to consider the other side of the equation; that is, if the concept of an "infinite" amount of anything, was truly a fact, then we would also have to say, if we are going to remain consistent, that there would also need be an infinite number of POSSIBILITIES, that could theoretically be manifested. By the definition of "infinite," this means that the end of that list of possibilities could never be reached. No matter how many galaxies, or even entirely different universes, which existed, working toward that goal, each new pathway to the possible would usher in, with itself, even more possibilities.

To relate this on perhaps a more easily grasped, mundane level, let us consider the example (so-called, by you) of your concept-- that you laboriously cover in your thread, which parented this one, God Is Not Intelligent-- of having all sixes come up, on one casting of six dice. Because there are a FINITE number of POSSIBILITIES, in your scenario, of course, given enough tosses, probability ensures that, sooner or later, the elusive result is attained. But that example contradicts your base assumption, that the "infinite," is not just an abstract concept, but a reality. So, for the dice to honestly represent all things that are possible, in an "infinite," system of reality, there would need to be a limitless number of potential outcomes. The faces on the die would need to be able to randomly change their spots, and/or their number of faces, for instance.

The only reason that your proposed axiom, in regards to the universe/all Creation, would seem to work, is because you are LIMITING the number of possibilities, while considering the number of catalytic agents, to be WITHOUT LIMIT. This would be seen as a dishonest way of interpreting your original set of proposed conditions, by logicians.


This is the logical analysis, for which your OP asks. You need not thank me for it, but have the tact, at least, not to respond with the fulsome serving of petty insults, which characterize our previous dialog.

 

What do you propose to be the limiting factor?

 

Chance.

The OP has already admitted that there are no absolutes. That the "chance" of every possibility happening is just that...a chance. That also means there is a chance of any possibility NOT happening.

Therefore, his statement, "Given infinity, all that is possible, is inevitable." is false.

 

The odds of something happening must be multiplied by the infinity as mentioned in the quote.

If the odds aren't zero, then the product will be certainty - as per the quote.

If the odds of something happening ARE zero, then it is clearly not in the "possible" that is required by the quote.

This isn't changed by talking about the odds of an event not happening. That's simply 1 minus the odds of the event happening.

 

Many interpretations of Multi-verse theories support that conclusion.

If, for example, mass behaves differently in a universe (we see this happen in black holes) then the "Laws of Gravity" would no longer hold.

Since, though, we can't see or understand the "infinite" by its nature, there are no wrong answers to this question.

 

True, but I think there could be infinity without multi-verse ideas.

I'm not sure what you mean concerning black holes. They are part of our universe. So, the possibilities of our universe include the weird physics of black holes, within the black holes.

I would agree that we may not know enough about how/whether this universe is infinite.

 

On your last sentence, you have delivered petty insults, so, physician, heal thyself. At least you wrote 'our previous dialogue'.

I'm not actually limiting the number of possibilities. .

So, regarding your contention that a roll of six dice can't apply to limitless possibilities.

yes, it can, because we can extend the dice metaphor to limitless number of dice, extending them to limitless possibilities. Because life affords limitless possibilities, we can add more dice.

See? On any given number of dice, no matter what the number is, there is a limited number of combinations (for any set, it doesn't matter if there are unlimited sets). So it doesn't matter what the number of dice is. For each set, the statement still is true. In this way, we don't have to resort to the artificial and unrealistic construct of 'changing the spots on the dice', we just add dice, which is consistent with real life.

If that is true, then it is true for everything else.

There is an astronomical number factors that have to be in place for life to occur.

True. But, it is a number, and any number has a finite number of combinations. If there are a finite number of combinations, then infinity makes it inevitable, noting that all numbers, compared to infinity, are infinitesimal.

Nothing is changed, and the statement is still true. Given infinity, all that is possible, is inevitable.

Infinity, the great mystery, is God. It is not intelligence, it's domain is in the abstract, and it gives rise to all things. I assert that infinity is spiritual. Infinity can be likened to an octopus and life, sentience, are it's tentacles.

That's why God is not a supreme being. Nature is the supreme, Nature, God, and infinity, is the actual trinity, three sides of the same triangle, and nature only allows what it allows.

That is why I'm a pantheist, not a deist.

Now, i'm adding more to the conversation, but this is the philosophical basis for the statement.

However, I'm an armchair philosopher, I claim no credentials beyond that of a layman.

And, by the way, do you really need to use typeface bold? It shouts, and shouting is very annoying. I do it, but sparingly, you do it on every comment.

 

The time (infinity) doesn't matter. If the odds of something happening isn't 100%, then there is always a chance it won't happen. That chance makes "inevitable" false.

 

Not given the rules of this universe.
Light cannot be black
Gravity outside black holes means things go down, not up.
Objects in motion will remain in motion.

The classical rules cannot be broken.

Opinion here:
I don't think black holes are part of this universe or any other. I think they are connecting points between universes. In this universe they are objects with great mass that draw matter in as predicted by classic theory. But, once the matter enters the black hole we predict it no longer behaves according to classical laws.

Matter cannot be destroyed only altered in form. Matter to energy, energy to matter.

Assuming this is true, what happens to the mass/energy from the matter entering the black hole?

I believe it is altered and ejected into another universe where it behaves according to that universe's laws.

If that is true then every possibility becomes reality in one universe or another.

 

See #144