Are the ideas of sovereign citizens what the US needs?

The ideology of this movement doesn't quite fit into a standard right wing or left wing box. I have watched a number of YouTube videos on what they believe in mostly for fun as some of the stuff really was entertaining but to stay on track here I will lay out the core beliefs of theirs:

1) On Money:

So they claim that our fiat money is worth less and so that mean's we have the right to bill our government their own bills though Accepted For Value. How they claim it should work is that because there social security number is worth a set amount of money like a million or more that everyone should have the right to live off the government for anything they want to buy as money is made by the fact they exist and sign document's.

No I am not joking, this is how this idea really works.

Also they think they shouldn't have to pay taxes because the IRS isn't a legal part of the United States Of America government. Yes I typed it that way because the United States government isn't the same as the United States Of America government due to how the legal system works because caps and wording matters a whole lot to sovereign citizens.

2) On loans

They claim when taking out a loan on a house or car that it's paid for by the fact they signed the agreement to pay because the act of signing made money on it's own. So no one should have to pay back loans with there federal reserve money because there signature is worth the value of the loan.

3) On law

Here's the part where the term "Sovereign citizen" is really known for. They believe that only common law applies to them and for everything else they can just claim what is called a straw man is guilty and that they aren't the legal person/straw man.

What this means is they claim they aren't the person on there government issued ID and expect people to be accepting of that in spite of fact's.

As for what I think:

Well it's a bridge too far for me to put it kindly. Though it can be quite the entertaining read and some of the history they like to cover can be of interest.

 

Sovereign citizenship dates back to when the USA was seriously into true personal freedom, so this is a thing of the past. The core theory is that no one is born indebted to, obligated to or bound by a government. However, that also dates back to when the government provided no services of any kind basically other than military defense. Also there was no income tax, so no tax implications. What it means now is complex.

For example, they have no right to any government services, aid or protect in return to being a sovereign citizen. Police would have no duty to protect, hospitals and ambulances should refuse them, and basically they can starve to death. While they have a right to exist as purely free, otherwise they have no rights whatsoever. The government does not have to issue them IDs or passports. No social security, medicare of any other old age entitlements. Banks have no obligation to allow them an account. Courts could refuse to protect their property rights, land and contracts. So, for example, if someone beat the crap out of a sovereign citizen, even if police, the court should take no action because the person disavowed any relationship to the government. That is a two-way street. No obligation means no obligation both ways.

Where is complicated is in regards to criminal laws. Sovereign citizens tend to claim they are immune from criminal laws, which of course in nonsense as criminal laws have no relationship to a person being a citizen or not. In criminal law, however, old concepts that USED to be believed also would apply. For example, original warrants in the USA called upon the sheriff or marshal to "bring in the body" of the person. This did not mean dead or alive. Rather, the concept was that only a person's body can be imprisoned, never a person' mind - which is the essence of who a person is. So if taken in the context of the origins of the "freedom" of sovereign citizenship also would flow that imprisoning a sovereign citizen's body would not be imprisoning the true personage, because that is a person's thoughts, not body.

There is no universal definition of what being a sovereign citizen actually means.

 

A judge I know had a curious case. A person filed a lawsuit suing God for messing up his life. Filed without an attorney of course.

The judge instructed the clerk to accept filing and put it on the docket for a hearing. At the hearing, the judge said to the Plaintiff "to have a lawsuit you have to have the other party served the lawsuit. I don't see in the file where you had God served this citation along with a copy of the lawsuit. It is the Plaintiff's job to have the Defendant served, not the Court's job."

The Judge thae asked him, "Do you know where God is? If you do, for a fee the Constable would attempt to serve the citation and copy of the lawsuit on God. Where is God, do you know what is his address is?"

The fellow said "I don't know where God is."

The Judge then explained until and unless he had God served, the Court cannot hear the case. It would be unfair to hear a case when the other side doesn't even know there is a lawsuit or trial. So the Plaintiff should make his best effort to location God for service on the lawsuit.

The Plaintiff said he understood, that did made sense, and left in search of God to have him served the lawsuit.

As the expression goes, it takes all kinds.

 

Living off 'the government' is taking money from others. Your Social Security Number is worth a lot to an illegal alien.

The IRS is a government revenue tool.

No, the buyer would have to qualify first. The act of signing comes after.

Do you realize that makes no sense?

That actually made on sense to me.

 

They have nothing whatsoever to do with monetary sovereignty

They are the perfect example of what happens when a bunch of paranoid schizophrenics decide to form a political movement rather than get the treatment they so desperately need

 

There's a difference?

Because many that claim to be sovereign citizens also tend to make claims about how the monetary system should work.

 

Monetary sovereignty is a known and recognized doctrine of regular economics, taught in Universities

Most of what I've read about the sovereign citizens show them to believe things that not even Trump University would try to countenance

 

Here's videos of some of the stuff they push:

1:

2)

3)

I made this thread partly because I don't get how they are a bunch of right wingers when they want the government to pay there bills.

Though maybe I don't really know what the real deal is and those people are just some other far out there kind of group with a different name.

 

Wild West, here we come.

 

Yes but thankfully they have a video to explain the concept that doesn't make sense:



To sum it up they believe there government ID is a strawman that works a lot like when a person starts a business as an LLC where that business is a "person" legally but doesn't count as the same legal person that opened the business.

 

We used to have a few of them locally. One owned a jewelry store. Claimed that he was no longer a citizen of the United States, and that he owed no taxes to any U.S. entity. His downfall was that his father was an honest man. His father lived in a trailer on property in back of the jewelry store. He enquired with the local tax appraiser about how much taxes he owed on his trailer, as his son had claimed to have taken care of it. Without any proof the father wanted to make sure he was legal. The investigation ended up pulling in the IRS, etc. Needless to say, the former jewelry store owner went to federal prison for tax evasion, and his store was confiscated by the feds. That was five or six years ago, and the store is still abandoned and owned by the feds.

 

That's interesting, I have never met one in real life so I only have YouTube to go by on what there deal is.

I am guessing he likely made a big deal out of how he wasn't a citizen of the United States and that the court had no right to charge him. Would have liked to seen that case in person as I am sure it was an interesting debate in the courtroom.

 

I never actually met him, but my wife used to work with his wife.

 

These people are idiots. It's not any more complicated than that. If they feel our laws are oppressive, they are welcome to revolt any time they want. I hope it's televised.

 

No one has been able to explain to me how they are a bunch of right wingers yet instead of being there own odd ball thing. I almost want to call them communist, but that isn't quite it as it just doesn't fit in with anything else I know of.

 

They have nothing to do with Conservatism. One could perhaps argue that they are closer to Libertarianism but, I don't think many of them would want to be associated with these anarchists.

 

The Plaintiff could have very well had the Pope in Vatican City served as being the chief representative of both "God" and "New World Order." Of course, that would have forced every judge on planet earth to recuse themselves as they could never hear a case where both of their masters were apparent litigants.

It takes only one kind. One who understands the law, the sea upon which the sovereign sets sail and the harbor into which the sovereign finds himself under persecution.

Being a Sovereign is no joke and neither is living under the CORPORATION UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, as opposed to the united states of America the Republic. See: Organic Constitution, 1871.

 

Forgive Tijuana, for he knows not what he says, nor is he aware of what he does not know.

 

This is because the truth about who and what you are and truth about what the "government" is not, has been kept from you. You believe yourself to be The Mandela Effect (just replace your name with your politicalforum UID for this example). However, I challenge you to take a closer look at the birth certificate, the social security card and any documentation delivered to you bearing your name. On those documents you will note that your name is cast in all CAPS. This is not you. This entity is in fact a CORPORATION created in your name and for your benefit.

How do we know this to be true?

We know it to be true because CORPORATIONS are not permitted under law to contract with Sovereign Individuals. This is not something you were ever taught by your parents because they simply never knew. This was also never taught to you in school, because the "system" in which that school operates never wanted you to know. Thus, you never "knew" what you could not possible ever "know."

Here's what else you never knew. That which you call the "Government" is in truth a CORPORATION that has its registration on foreign soil. Every so-called "Government" in ever state including the so-called "Federal Government" is in fact a CORPORATION having registration in a foreign land. Not one of them are registered as a CORPORATION in the "united states of America the Republic." Thus, when they do business with you and attempt to engage (or more to the point, entrap) you in a transaction, they are not engaging "The Mandela Effect." They are engaging THE MANDELA EFFECT, which is nothing more than a corpse or a vessel in reality. A CORPORATION created in your name that you never knew existed.

Now, how does that make you feel? All the while, you though you were a Citizen of the (fill in the name of the state here) and a Citizen of the UNITED STATES. In reality, "The Mandela Effect" is an American Sovereign. Not a Citizen of (fill in the name of the state here), nor a Citizen of the UNITED STATES and thus, you are not subject to the Crown of England in London, itself just another CORPORATION.

Oh, what tangled webs they weave when at first they try to deceive. And, they have been deceiving generations for generations.

This is but the tip of the iceberg about what you probably never knew about yourself or THEM. You need to be asking yourself the question: Who the hell are THEY and how did THEY gain so much control over my life?

 

Sovereign Citizen, as a legal term, is retarded. It translates in legalese to 'King Slave.'
The generel tennets are sound however.
-I am the human Joe Smith. JOE SMITH, Joe SMITH, J. SMITH, Smith Joe and many others are 'straw men,' persons (personas) that exist as a fake representation of me.
-Common law is extremely powerful in the courts if you know how to use (speak) it. Under common law, much of the legalities (note i didnt say 'laws'- unlawful and illegal are not the same) we are subjected to are unlawful to subject on humans. But they are lawful to subject on corporations. So personas are attatched to our identities, basically presuming that by entering into thesocisl security system, appearing for court as JOE SMITH, signing legal documents when we dont really speak the language the document is written in, referring to ourselves a 'persons' instead of humans, and generally not resisting to pay taxes, fines, be imprisoned for regulatory violations... we are volunteering to be subjugated as 'citizens.'

Now, you cant just show up in court, say 'im not a persona, im a human' and get out of paying taxes. Its faaaaar more complicated thsn that. But it is done from time to time.

We are not being governed as humans with human rights. We are being governed as living commodities, our personas regulated by and property of the corporate conglomerate known as the United States Government and its many partners connected by interlocking directorate. And its technically lawful, because legally we have consented to it (by not refusing it in the proper way).

 

Sovereign citizens are freaking nuts who think the laws don't apply to them but they apply to other people when it is convenient for the sovereign citizen. They, among other things, do things like record forged certificates of satisfactions on mortgages, clutter up the courts with nonsense filings, and think that they can do whatever the hell they want because they are not subject to any laws.

 

The main question I have is do they win cases in court with the reasoning you have put forward? If they do then where are the public result's of them winning?

I would be asking the questions you claim I should be asking if someone could actually prove the system works the way Sovereign Citizens claim it does. So far I have seen many who get thrown in jail by the IRS and those who quit on it before the bank takes the house due to a lack of paying on their loan.

People resist paying taxes, fines and going to jail all the time but if they are guilty of a crime they still get what's coming. I am sure those in jail volunteered to be there as much I any sane person would volunteer to Visit North Korea.

I am trying to understand this very different view of the system that Sovereign Citizens have but a lot of it seems like a bridge too far. Mostly because I have seen many YouTube claims with not much if anything to back it up.

 

Everything you said is technically tue. Yes, we have no real obligation to do anything because money is technically worthless and laws are meaningless as well. However, following them keeps society together, so claiming this and then opposing the law would result in anarchy and a lot of death.

 

They are everyone, and they have so much control over my life because they allow me to have it. Without their assistance my life, and yours, would be "nasty, brutish, coarse and short" and I'd rather not live that way.

 

Using the false book of translations to determine what is retarded is probably not a good idea. Legalese, is by definition a corruption of underlying truth and clarity.

For the human :Joe-Smith: the purpose of being Sovereign and not for the fake representation of the same.

As a living man or woman, move to become the trustee of the cest tui qui and remove yourself from under the authority of admiralty law that now defines your status as being "dead." Name the judge as trustee, prosecutor as trustor (if applicable), yourself as both beneficiary and now trustee (reclaimed) and then move to dissolve the trust as its trustee and then motion to dismiss. After that, simply walk out of the court. If you happen to be in handcuffs and shackles and cannot simply walk out, simply notice the judge that they are now in direct violation of their oath and subject to removal from the bench. If necessary, further inform the judge that if your immediate release is not granted, that you will as private attorney general, prosecute the judge to the fullest and maximum extend allowable by law.

Very good and correct with one exception. Change "personas" to "legal fiction" and pretty much everything else passes.

See the above reclamation of trustee status. It is probably best that the judge know that you know what's taking place by clearly identifying the judge's status as well as court clerks status. Both prosecutor and bailiff are null and void. They are mere bit players with no real influence in the court room, or foreign jurisdiction.

"Personas" to "legal fiction" or "legal entity" or "corporation" or "cest tui qui trust."
"United State Government" to "UNITED STATES, INC."
Otherwise, I concur 100%.