Are the Palestinians the Jews NOT expelled from Judaea after Bar Kochba Revolt?

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by DennisTate, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Should I conclude that asking for proof has recently been redefined as "weak try at sophistry"? Is that a dramatic change at international level, or is it a local initiative where you live?

    I live on the map. I'm Israeli.

    Let's break the above priceless gem in two.

    Military law: only the land itself has been under military law. The inhabitants are under Israeli civil law, as ruled by Israel's Supreme Court in Jerusalem.

    Remember the international outcry when Israeli political leaders declared their intentions to extend Israeli civil law over parts of the territories (incorrectly called "annexation" by hysterical media)? Well, that's international hypocrisy for you. Don't cry over military rule while simultaneously rejecting attempts at changing it to civil rule.

    Paid mercenaries: nope.

    More priceless gems.

    Constantly moving wall? Palestinians live in Diagon alley! Wicked.

    Maybe you don't quite understand what ethnic cleansing is. Making people disappear from a certain area is ethnic cleansing. I asked you to make a list of all those disappearing people - their prior locations, their current locations, the number of people who had disappeared from each location, when did the disappearing took place in each location.

    Please define "Israeli controlled Palestine".
     
  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Do you live in Israel or do you live in Palestine?

    I don't believe you've seen the map of Palestine, as you seem to think that the annexation of Palestinian land by Israel hasn't crept from small post-1967 incursions to the grand theft that exists today with Palestine divided into separate northern and sourthern spheres with Israel claiming land even along the Jordan River!!

    And, your claim that nobody was living on that land is just pure sophistry. Israel has stolen the most arable land - river valleys, the waters of the Jordan, etc.

    Let's remember that even Netanyahu considered many of the Israeli settlements in Palestine to be illegal. During the Bush administration he even committed to removing those settlements as one of the conditions for entering negotiations.

    This isn't just my view - it's the view of Netanyahu.

    And, since then those settlements have grown rapidly. In fact, Netanyahu demanded that ethnic cleansing be allowed to continue EVEN DURING BORDER NETOGIATIONS!!

    Israel PROVED itself to be nowhere near honest in its attitude toward a negotiated settlement. You can't negotiate for borders DURING the process of extending the theft.

    Your idea that Palestinians in Palestine get representation is true only in a limited sense as they aren't even allowed to LIVE in much of their own country and are ruled under Israeli military law in other portions.

    This is a humanitarian crime that affects the entire region.

    As for the US, we have proven that we don't stand for the rule of law - we stand for the law of the jungle as played out with modern US military might leveled by Isarel against unarmed Palestinians. We prove that we don't believe in representation by the people. We don't see negotiation as even being relevent as a method of ending the ongoing Israeli atrocities in West Bank and the halting of the twenty year long Israeli war against Gaza.

    So, don't make the mistake of thinking that I see Israel as the only actor in this atrocity.
     
  3. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    Last time i checked ... There was No such thing as Palestine.
    You must be talking about Jordan.
    That i can relate.
     
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    No, I mean the state of Palestine.

    Palestine is recognized by 138 of the UN nations and 2 others who are not.

    Palestine is a nonmember observer state of the UN.

    Palestine was evaluated by the UN Security Council to determine whether it was qualifed to be a state - an analysis that is the job of the UNSC to perform for all potential states. The result was affirmative.

    Suggesting Palestine isn't a state is a minority opinion that has NO logical justification AT ALL.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2020
  5. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    Many many good people disagree with you.
    Jordan is Palestine :thumbsup:
     
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    It's not a matter of disagreeing with me.

    There aren't any countries in the world that are as confused as you suggest.

    The majority of the world accepts Palestine as a state as I pointed out.
     
  7. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    The settlements are not in Palestine. The territory administered by Israel following the Oslo accords is not - has never been - part of a country called Palestine. I think you meant to ask if I live in Israel or over the green line.

    It doesn't matter where I live. I've been over the green line. I know people who live over the green line. I've seen the security barrier, I lived through its construction, I know there's only one.

    There's no map of Palestine, because there's no Palestine. It could have been, after Oslo, but both Fatah and Hamas had their own - very different - agendas and sponsors. The incredible stupidity of the international community that insisted on separate elections in Gaza led to the victory of Hamas, and the subsequent split when Hamas violently took over the political power in Gaza.

    Of course Israel is claiming land along the Jordan river. It is, after all, our right according to international law. Yes, I know anti-Zionists are not aware that international law is on Israel's side, they usually don't even know what international law really is.

    Regarding the "grand theft", let's check what Palestinian leaders themselves are saying about it.
    https://www.haaretz.com/1.5206111

    So...when are the Palestinians lying? Are they lying when they cry that most of the land had been taken by Israel for settlements, or are they lying when they say that the settlements are a negligible part of the territories they claim for themselves?

    I never said nobody was living on all that land. Most settlements had been built on public land, or land purchased from Palestinian owners. That's not ethnic cleansing. Settlers did not destroy people's homes.

    My point is that a serious accusation must be based on solid evidence. Where's the evidence that Israel engaged in ethnic cleansing? Where's the evidence that most arable land had been stolen? Where's the evidence that the waters of the Jordan had been stolen?

    I'm well aware that some of the settlements - outposts, really, camper trailers not houses - were illegal. I think all of them had already been dismantled, maybe except one controversial case (Palestinian owner of the land claimed the land had been sold to settlers without his knowledge). Our Supreme Court in Jerusalem is usually ruling in favor of the Palestinians in such cases, leading to an outcry from the far right. The funniest thing is, the right managed to have one of their judges elected, and his first ruling was against such an illegal outpost and in favor of the Palestinian side.

    The settlements have grown on land already owned by Israelis. No ethnic cleansing or land theft was required for this purpose. If you disagree, prove your assertions. How much land was owned by the respective settlements before the construction, how much after, and so on.

    Have you even bothered to read the Oslo accords? There's nothing there about halting construction in existing settlements.

    The Palestinians had never respected the Oslo accords, by the way, negotiating for borders as they violated the international law generated by the Oslo accords, but nobody seems to care. Perhaps anti-Zionists see Palestinians as immature, irresponsible, not accountable for their own actions. There's no other logical explanation for obsessive scrutiny of the Israeli side while totally ignoring the actions of the Palestinians.

    The Palestinians never had a country in Palestine. They now have two autonomous territories, still not a country.

    Fun fact: the same anti-Zionists who misquote and misinterpret international law when they think they can use it against Israel, totally forget it exists when it's on Israel's side. Military law in occupied and disputed territories is not a humanitarian crime in international law.

    As I said, the other side seems to be just too dumb to be accountable in the eyes of the anti-Zionists. The soft bigotry of lower expectations.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2020
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You're in such serious denial that you are resorting to sophistry and word games.

    The Wall has moved many times. There are maps drawn by Israel showing additions and new construction. These have been considered "defensive", but Israel has built walls running up river bottoms, capturing the arable land while ignoring the high ground that defense would require.

    And, not even that matters. Ethnic cleansing of Palestine is a humanitarian atrocity. Denying representation in the government that rules the people is also absolutely unacceptable by ANY measure.

    Even Netanyahu has recognized that certain settlements are illegal.

    Whether you refuse to call it Palestine is totally irrelevant - the vast majority of the world recognizes West Bank and Gaza as Palestine, and that includes the United Nations which recognizes Palestine as a state.

    The United Nations Security Council has validated Palestine as being fully qualified as a country. They are the ones chartered with making that judgement, investigating the quality of banking, courts, and other properties deemed required to be considered a country.

    You have not countered anything I've stated.

    Your hate for Palestinians is so deep that driving them off their farms, stealing their water rights, bulldozing their homes, ruling them with foreign military rule are all somehow justified by your demented mind.

    And, the light version of apartheid used within Israel is only slightly less disgusting.
     
  9. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    I am sure you never went for a visit in that area.
    Well, I have.
    What you wrote is an example of the Palestinian wall of lies.
    I went to Ramallah and Nables before the Coronavirus, Coffee shops & night clubs were full, everybody ate Baklawa.
    The so called Palestinians think they are the center of the world ... they learned to moan and moan ... they want our donations.
    Some of the population want quiet and peace but many ( espicially the leaders ) do not want peace. They want it ALL.
    Many Arabs in the Arab world start to realize that Israel is not the problem.
     
  10. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    No proof whatsoever for your allegations, then. Just as I expected.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Our founding fathres would not even SLIGHTLY agree with you.

    They pointed out that equal representation, security in ones property, etc., were worth war of revolution.

    I'll follow our founding fathers and the great works they created, not the humanitarian atrocities carried out by Israel for personal wealth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I thought you lived in the area and would thus have a CLUE of what's going on!!

    Sorry I was so wrong about that. I'll try to accomodate your apparant total lack of information.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    I really don't understand where you see on this map so many walls.

    Here's a simple, easy to understand map of the security barrier, from a source I think you'll find reliable:
    [​IMG]


    https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-199290/
     
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  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    More pure sophistry.

    That doesn't even START to represent the regions of Palestine where Palestinians have representation in the government that governs them.

    That doesn't even START to represent the limits on Palestinian travel.

    That doesn't even START to represent the limits on where Palestinians are allowed to have propert - even though Palestinians owned ALL that region in your map.

    That doesn't even START to represent the continuing wall construction that has been designed to capture more land to be part of Israel.

    Aren't you even SLIGHTLY embarrassed by the pure sophistry of your argument?
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  15. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    Sure.
    They were too busy ethnic cleansing Native Americans.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
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  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    They committed all sorts of crimes. They had SLAVERY for Christ sakes.

    The amazing part is that the had some incredible things to say about government and colonists were smart enough to listen.

    We STILL need to listen.
     
  17. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Supposing that the "Palestinians" in your post are the same as those who call themselves Palestinians today, the only thing left for you to do is prove that they owned all that region prior to 1967.

    Oh, and please define the term "owned", because if a group of Jews owns today a rather large area of New York, this definition is paramount for the purpose of determining if their descendants will be entitled to form their own country in, say, Brooklyn.
     
  18. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    That's why you should stop listening to BDS and the Palestinian wall of lies.
    After the Virus is goen, take a trip to the Middle East.
    You'll be surprised !
    Israel is Not the problem.
     
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  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    By international law, Palestinians are those who are citizens of Palestine. They chose that name. They could have chosen any name they want.

    By international law, people are secure in their property REGARDLESS OF WHERE BORDERS ARE DRAWN. If boders are legally redrawn, all those living withinn those borders are citizens of the country where their property lies.

    Your Brooklyn think is just plain silly. There has NEVER been a time when Israel had a right to carry out ethnic cleansing operations in Palestine. And, that is even more internationally recognized since 1967 borders were drawn.
     
  20. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    There are millions of people called Palestinians without any citizenship.

    Please quote the relevant international law. If you're right, the UN violates international law for decades - through UNRWA - by maintaining refugee camps for people who are not Palestinian citizens, and should not be entitled to receive help from the international community as Palestinians. Of course the UN doesn't even respect its own charter, but that's not the point here.

    We need another definition for Palestinians.

    Please quote relevant international laws.

    I've noticed that many people don't know what international laws are, thinking every living soul on this planet must be bound by some sacred universal international laws. In fact, a country is only bound by those treaties signed and/or ratified by that country's political leaders, not by all agreements and treaties in the world. Keeping this in mind, please quote the relevant international law/s that apply to Israel and the conflict.

    Jews lost all their properties in Gaza, Judea, Samaria, and the Old City of Jerusalem, during the British Mandate and the Jordanian occupation. Nobody ever mentions it, the ethnic cleansing of Jews from their national home that the British were supposed to create and help develop. Please quote the international laws that allow others to ethnic cleanse Jews, but don't allow Jews to return to their lost properties. Please quote the international laws that state that only Jews are not secure in their property.

    By the way, the Document of the Mandate is still valid, and unlike the imaginative universal international laws in idealistic fantasies, it generates real international law. It clearly states that Jews have the right to settle anywhere within the boundaries of the (now former) Mandate, where "anywhere" obviously includes Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. This right is further enshrined in real international law generated by Article 80, Chapter 12 of the UN Charter which commits that the UN upholds the Jewish rights given by the British Mandate and prohibits altering such rights. Since the UN Charter had been signed by virtually every country in the world, this is one international law that should be respected by every country in the world. Is it?

    Of course it is. That was my point.

    On the other hand, look at northern Cyprus, now a Turkish republic. A "Turkish northern Cyprus" might have sounded plain silly back in 1965.

    Have evidence for the ethnic cleansing yet?

    Did you know that expulsions and massive population transfers were quite common at the time modern Israel was born? I already mentioned the ethnic cleansing of Jews by the British and Jordanians, and later there was the expulsion of Jews from Egypt. Roughly 14 million ethnic Germans had been expelled from Eastern European countries at the end of the WWII and lost all their properties. Over 10,000,000 persons had just been displaced following the creation of Pakistan and independent India, with up to two million dead from large-scale violence. If Jews did indeed engage in ethnic cleansing in Palestine (which is disputed by Benny Morris based on declassified documents of the time), they did nothing extraordinary or unusual, that was the routine then.

    Oddly enough, only the Arabs of Palestine received their own UN agency, permanent international support, and inherited refugee status.

    Again: please prove that construction of settlements led to ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    They call their counry Palestine and the denomonym the choose is Palestinian.

    I don't believe you're going to convince them of changing that, and it is ENTIRELY up to them.
    Go look it up yourself.
    The very EXISTENCE of Isreal was illegal. They got forgiven for that, probably because of sentiment whipped up by the holocaust.

    Since then, Israel's continued growth by military conquest is again absoltuely against UN law which states that borders may not be decided by war and that if borders are changed, those living within the new borders become full citizens of the country in which they find themselves.
    The mandate does not allow them to commence ethnic cleansing and it doesn't suggest that Israelis who buy property in Palestine and live there are somehow not governed by the government of Palestine.

    Again, even Netanyhau admitted that Israeli settlements in Palestine were illegal. He even tried to remove some of these illegal settlements during the Bush administration, but failed.

    I think Netanyahu knew more than you do.
    Palestinian homes have been bulldozed. Walls have been created that prevented farmers to work their land - which then Israeli law claimed as forfiture. Water rights have been denied by Israel - thus eliminating agricultural properties. Etc., etc.

    There is NO QUESTION of ethnic cleansing.
     
  22. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    Jordan is Palestine.
    Only Arabs are ethnic cleansing Other Arabs.
     
  23. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Except they called themselves Palestinians before they had their autonomous territory, but after the creation of modern Israel. Arabs called the region Southern Syria during the British Mandate, not Palestine. Palestine was identified with Jews then.

    One has to wonder why they chose for themselves a name beginning with a letter that doesn't exist in their language.

    No. You made the claim, you prove it.

    What do you mean by "illegal existence"? What makes a country legal?

    The UN Charter is against acquisition of territory in aggressive wars, not wars in general. That's why the annexation of Judea and Samaria by Jordan wasn't recognized by the international community. By the way, don't you find it a bit odd that nobody, including Palestinian themselves, didn't ask Jordan to give Palestinians their own country on the territory they now claim as Palestinian homeland from time immemorial. Nor did they ask Egypt to give up their military rule in Gaza.

    Some recent history: Jews were seen as Palestinians at the time of the Mandate, not Arabs. Arabs didn't call themselves Palestinians then. The government of Palestine was British. Your assertion doesn't make sense, since both the Document of the Mandate and Chapter 12 of Article 80 were written long before there was an Arab Palestinian government.

    The settlements are in the area governed by Israel, not the PA. There are no Jewish settlements in the PA. Palestinians are forbidden under penalty of death to sell land to Jews. There's no chance any Jew will buy property in a territory governed by the Palestinians.

    Netanyahu admitted that some settlements were illegal. Nobody disputes that, there was a vibrant public debate around this issue until the Covid took precedence. Most are legal though.

    Again: repeating the same mantra ad nauseam doesn't make it true. Where's the data? The names of the villages, number of inhabitants, when were the houses bulldozed, to what purpose, what happened to the inhabitants, all those tiny details that put together are called "evidence".

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...E-CP_eng.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3LDcrkiF2EqKnhpS7eeuak

    There's only one place where inhabitants were separated from some of their lands: Bil'in. This is an interesting story, because Bil'in sued and won, but then...

    This is from the second ruling at the Supreme Court in this matter. Quite enlightening:
    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...5BEng%5D.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2jNZrgExJzzJ8EcJfpnlJ9
     
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  24. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Israel is also Palestine. just look at the map
     
  25. MGB ROADSTER

    MGB ROADSTER Banned

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    We have different maps.
    Yours is expired.
    Missed u
     

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