Are there logical fallacies in Christianity?

Discussion in 'Debates & Contests' started by usfan, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. ToddWB

    ToddWB Active Member

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    If Hitler was a Christian.. he wasn't very good at it.
     
  2. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Good point.

    ..though, the debate is pretty one sided if we have to present the opposing side, too. ;)
     
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  3. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    There must have been a bit of miscommunication. I was hoping for some evidence for Christianity. My claim was that any arguments for Christianity can be refuted easily. A lack of logical fallacies in Christianity doesn't mean its arguments are strong. Another issue is that Christians will often reinterpret verses that appear to be fallacious, and the bible is famous for vagueness and numerous interpretations.

    Let me give you an example. One question is why does it make sense for people who have never heard of Christianity to go to hell? You may try to dispute that non-believers go to hell, but the bible is very clear that only through Christ shall you be saved. But I guess you could claim that maybe people have a chance of changing their ways and being saved after they die, or that this verse only applies to people who have actively rejected Christ, or that it is through works not faith that people are saved. So there are always ways of adding your own spin to the bible to get yourself out of a logical problem.

    Top ways to get out of a logical error:
    1: Go back to the Greek/Hebrew and debate the translation of the error.
    2: Use vageness in the grammar and sentences to debate the error.
    3: Find a conflicting verse and use that to re-interpret the verse in question.
    4: Claim that the passage is metaphorical.
    5: State that the error is on account of some typos or misunderstandings of the writers not on God himself.
    5: Since God is all-powerful, he can clean up any problems the verse has.
    6: State that the verse isn't wrong and that the ways of God are mysterious.
    7: Argue that the verse was once necessary but has expired today or was only meant for a limited audience only at that time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
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  4. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Really, he and his fellow christians killed six million Jews and that is what the christians wanted. Now they want the Jews to return Palestine so their God can kill them.
     
  5. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not one sided at all you simply replied you do not know and it was irrelevant!
    First you claimed that Hitler was not a Christian then you quote un sourced material, then state that whether Hitler was baptised, excommunicated or renounced his faith was irrelevant! Then you try to suggest he was an adherent to another religion because you do not want your religion tarnished, absolutely hirlarious to watch what you do!

    Was Hitler a Christian?

    Definition of Christian.

    Christian


    ADJECTIVE
    • Relating to or professing Christianity or its teachings.
    NOUN
    Was Hitler Baptised?
    Yes.
    Adolf Hitler (1889–1945) was born on April 20, 1889, in the Upper Austrian border town Braunau am Inn, located approximately 65 miles east of Munich and nearly 30 miles north of Salzburg. He was baptized a Catholic.
    https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/adolf-hitler-early-years-1889-1913

    Was he excommunicated?
    No, there is no record he was ever excommunicated, indeed his book Mien Kampf was not even placed on the Catholic list of books considered heretical by the Catholic Church despite it being one of the largest selling books at the time.

    Did he ever renounce his faith?

    "We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession...."
    - Article 20 of the program of the German Workers' Party (later named the National Socialist German Workers' Party, NSDAP)

    I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.
    - Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941

    I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.
    - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 1

    ....the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.
    - Adolf Hitler (following the position of Martin Luther), Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

    My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. ...Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. ...
    - Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922

    By its decision to carry out the political and moral cleansing of our public life, the Government is creating and securing the conditions for a really deep and inner religious life. The advantages for the individual which may be derived from compromises with atheistic organizations do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values. The national Government sees in both Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of our society. ...
    - Adolf Hitler, speech before the Reichstag, March 23, 1933, just before the Enabling Act is passed.

    Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past ... (few) years.
    - Adolf Hitler, quoted in: The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872


    https://www.thoughtco.com/adolf-hitler-on-christianity-quotes-248190

    No he never renounced his faith. Since his death there have been many people who have tried to suggest he was anti christian, principle amongst the being Albert Speer who managed to lie enough at Nuremberg to avoid the hanging he so richly deserved, he then cultivated a persona of the "good Nazi".

    I simply showed that you continue to make claims that you have been shown to be arguable at best and simply downright false. If you can show that Hitler was not baptised, that he was excommunicated or that he renounced his Christian faith do so with facts and sourced material.

    So much of what Hitler wrote still applies to the Christian right today, the SS wore "god with us" on their belt buckles, not far away from "in god we trust"!
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  6. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Both elements are appropriate, in this debate. I can present evidence FOR the historical facts of Christianity, as well as debunk the false narratives and caricatures. I began the debate with a very broad premise, which seems to be the main point, of this debate:

    Is Christianity a logical and valid worldview?

    please allow me to make my own arguments, and not ask me to defend straw men, or 'Christians!' arguments, whomever they are. I think you will have enough, dealing with my actual arguments, without telling me what they are, beforehand.

    This is your premise. The rest following are straw men, not anything i have said. If you would allow me to formulate my own points, instead of giving me a list of straw men, there could be an actual debate, over real points and logical arguments.
    If you don't mind, i will ignore your list of straw men to choose from, and provide my own arguments. You can take them apart, then. I'm sure you're very good at dismantling the straw men.

    I'll address the only topical point in your first debating post, in this thread:

    Why does it make sense for people who have never heard of Christianity to go to hell?

    A few problems:
    1. The charge is not established. Nobody here has claimed this.
    2. It is not accurate, from either the pop Christian view, nor the biblical historical one.
    3. It is a partial straw man, using assumptions that have not been established.

    But i will address the basic premise:

    It is illogical for God to punish humanity.

    As a 'logical' problem, from the historical Christian perspective, it is very simple:
    1. Man has inherent Sin from birth.
    2. Sin has alienated humanity from God.
    3. The result of Sin is death.
    4. All humanity is doomed to die.

    This is a clearly logical progression, if you accept the assumptions. Each assumption would need to be examined separately, to see if the resulting conclusion is sound.

    Now, the 'heard of Christianity' part.

    1. Jesus came to atone for the Sin of mankind.
    2. Those who receive the forgiveness of Sin are redeemed from destruction.
    3. Part of the mission of the redeemed is to explain and distribute the 'good news' (gospel), to those who have not heard.
    4. It is not a 'fact', that any who have never heard this gospel are automatically doomed. That is a belief, for some.
    5. The judgement of God is best left to God.

    You have a few other implied points, but i prefer to let you state them yourself, as points to support your side of this debate. Don't worry about what you think my reply will be, or should be. I can handle that part myself.
     
  7. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    I will list some positive, FOR Christianity points:

    1. Jesus was a factual historical figure.
    2. The biblical accounts are valid, historical renditions.
    3. The experiences that people have had with the power of the gospel are evidence of God's redemption.
    4. Morality and conscience are universal in the human animal, and indicate a moral awareness.. and the presence of sin.

    Not all need be addressed at once.
     
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  8. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    I've made all the 'Hitler!' rebuttals i will make. Further wrangling about him seems irrelevant and deflective, to bog the debate in tedium.
     
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  9. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Source?
    Incorrect, the flood myth being the most obvious.
    Assertion not based on evidence or logic, many people claim experiences of a god/gods, if you are logical and accept the experiences you must also except the experiences of others such as Hindus.
    Incorrect across many threads you have been asked to show one single universal moral and have failed to do so.
     
  10. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Then why bring him up?
     
  11. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps a definition of the 'Christianity' i am defending here would be helpful.

    ..Historical, biblical Christianity, as defined by the Founder.. this summary from another thread should be helpful:
     
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  12. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Thats fair. Both of us will have some burden of proof. My point is that there are a lot of ways to reinterpret the bible to get out of logical contradictions, so pinning down logical contradictions for the bible is hard. But I will try my best. Below, I will try to show that non-believers who have never heard of Christianity aren't saved.

    2 Thessalonians 1:
    8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
    9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

    Romans 10:
    13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
    14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

    Ephesians 2:
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
    9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

    Acts 4:
    12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

    Romans 2:
    12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

    I think the bible is very clear that only through Jesus are you saved and never having heard of him is no excuse.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  13. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    And I will refute all points very easily as promised.
    1. Being a historical figure does not confirm any supernatural claims.
    2. Making valid historical accounts of the non-supernatural events of the times does not validate the supernatural claims.
    3. People of all many contradicting religions have spiritual experiences. There are also claims of UFO, psychic, and spiritual experiences as well. We can't simply believe people who claims UFO or some kind of psychic or spiritual experienced based on their word alone.
    4. Morality are just rules of behavior and need evidence to be claimed true. Having moral emotions doesn't prove morality true just like having selfish or angry emotions doesn't prove selfishness or anger true. Even if objective morality exists, there is no evidence that it was created by the word of God, rather than being logically true like math independent of God.
     
  14. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    That is certainly a common inference, from the passages (and others) that you quoted. I accept that some people and doctrines explicitly say and believe just that.

    I do not see it as being 'illogical', or nullifying Christianity, so I'm not sure how it supports your premise.

    IMO, there is some danger in dogmatically declaring who will be saved, and who will go to hell. There is enough ambiguity for the concept, that i am content to leave that judgement to God.

    But however it pans out, the judgment of God on fallen humanity is a given, and the Remedy to escape that judgment is there. It is not irrational or invalid, if the premises are accepted, as is the case with any philosophical worldview.
     
  15. pitbull

    pitbull Active Member

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    Christians believe that God has a son who is the father (aka. God) himself. And they also believe that an almighty God sacrificed his own son for the sake of mankind. That's pretty weird, you don't think so?
     
  16. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    I think the new Testament is very clear about who is generally being saved. Jesus and his apostles walked up and down the ancient world who is going to be saved or not.

    So you don't see anything wrong for eternally punishing someone for not accepting Jesus when he had no chance of even hearing about Jesus? So being born on some remote Island far from the Christian world is a deserved hell sentence? So lets take you who would otherwise enjoy the pleasures of heaven thanks to your great faith. But instead of you being born in somewhere in the US, you are born in a prison camp in North Korea, and die of overwork at age 15. That makes you deserving of eternal hell?
     
  17. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    This does not 'refute!' any of the points made. The points offered were 'evidence' FOR the validity and rationality of Christianity, not empirical proof of miracles, or God. Let's not change the debate into something else.

    Evidence FOR the validity and rationality of the Christian worldview:

    1. Jesus was a factual historical figure.
    2. The biblical accounts are valid, historical renditions.
    3. The experiences that people have had with the power of the gospel are evidence of God's redemption.
    4. Morality and conscience are universal in the human animal, and indicate a moral awareness.. and the presence of sin.

    You have only refuted an assertion that nobody is making. The debate here is the rationality and validity of Christianity, as a worldview.

    These points (among others) provide a RATIONAL basis for Christianity.

    To accuse 'Christianity!' of being 'irrational and superstitious!', you would have to refute the evidence given. You would have to prove that,
    1. Jesus was a mythical figure
    2. The biblical manuscripts are contrived
    3. Experiences with God (or the supernatural) are delusions
    4. Morality and conscience are human constructs

    Otherwise, all you have are assertions and contrary beliefs, not 'logical rebuttals.' YOU may believe differently, about these points, but that does not refute their validity as a basis for other's beliefs.

    These points provide evidence for a logical, factual basis for the Christian worldview . merely dismissing them, with no evidence, does not diminish their strength of reasoning.
     
  18. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Everyone makes judgments, based on the information they have . I submit you have flawed information, based on caricatures and propaganda distortions, from a competing religious worldview. This does not refute the rationality of Christianity, and is an argument of incredulity.

    Not much in the NT about who is not going to be saved... some obvious ones are mentioned. But to extrapolate God's judgment based on ambiguous or indefinite passages is not a good practice.

    But even if you insist on this interpretation, it does not nullify the validity of Christianity. The bar of 'Hell!' is raised, so more people are sent there, with this narrower interpretation, but it does not make Christianity 'illogical!', if you accept the premise of Original Sin.

    My personal moral judgments are irrelevant. We are following the logical progression of Christian theology, to see if it is logical.

    I am not God, nor did i establish any moral values in anyone. But if the God of the Bible did, then His judgments would be important to know, and sift from the lies, distortions, and caricatures that abound, from hostile religious competitors.

    Whether you hold to 'only believers in the historical Jesus', or 'allow God the leeway to judge people how He wills', does not nullify the rationality of Christian theology, or the implications of the worldview.

    Hell is an assumption, and is taught as a real punishment, for all who reject the forgiveness and redemption of God. The specifics of who are condemned, and who are saved does not detract from the presumption of eternal hell.
     
  19. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    When you are trying to present evidence for Christianity, the burden of proof is on you to show that this is evidence. These are your claims, your so-called evidence, you have to support them. You haven't provided any evidence that Jesus did anything supernatural, that the supernatural claims in the bible actually happened, that claims of personal spiritual experiences are actual experiences with the Christian God, or that morality is objective and created by the Christian God. You just made these claims without supporting them, so they are just claims, not proof, not evidence.

    So as promised, I have delivered my refutations.
     
  20. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Actually there are an abundance of verses in the bible that state that only through Jesus and faith in Jesus are we saved and that people who don't do this are not saved. You have not justified your claim that these verses are ambiguous or indefinite. I will post them again. These verses are very clear that non-believers and people who don't know about Christianity aren't saved. These verses are so clear about salvation only through faith in Christ that the vast majority of Christian religions make this a central tenet. And I agree with them that is what the bible says.

    2 Thessalonians 1:
    8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
    9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

    Romans 10:
    13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
    14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

    Ephesians 2:
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
    9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

    Acts 4:
    12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

    Romans 2:
    12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
     

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