Are there logical fallacies in Christianity?

Discussion in 'Debates & Contests' started by usfan, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    One of the the best rational deconstructions of the BIble based on inconsistencies, using the Bible itself, was written by Thomas Paine (author of Common sense) in 1794 in his little known series entitled ‘Age of Reason’.
    http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/documents/1786-1800/thomas-paine-the-age-of-reason/index.php
    It’s a very detailed tear down, and done carefully and rationally by a theist critic of the Bible.
     
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  2. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    No dilemma there. The story told in Genesis begins with the creation of the heavens and the Earth; but who knows what the author meant by "heavens"? For all I know he was referring to the Milky Way, which may have been the last galaxy to have been created.
    As opposed to an infinite beginning?
     
  3. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    you mean like what were Jesus's last words Right before he gave up the ghost?

    Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

    Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

    John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  4. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yep, Hitler was born and raised Christian, but he sure turned out to be a bad Christian
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  5. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Active Member

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    I am curious, in your opinion which if any folks practice Christianity according to your interpretation of its apparently infallible precepts?

    Do you consider a Catholic Priest Rapist a Christian? Or the vast wealth of the Catholic Church to comply with the numerous admonitions against the pursuit of wealth in the New Testament. Or for that matter, any of the followers of the so-called prosperity gospels?

    Do you believe in the scripture that it is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of Heaven? If so, then here in the US, would it be fair to assume that only the poorest among us will goto Heaven, and then perhaps not even them, being that we are the richest nation on Earth?

    Do you believe that Jesus died and came back to life after three days deceased in a tomb? And that it coincidentally is celebrated during the Northern Hemisphere’s far more ancient and widespread celebrations of the Spring Equinox?

    When you use the term, “The Bible”, are you referring to both the Torah and the New Testament? And if so, is it your assertion that God is Love?

    Apologies, you may want to skip having this conversation with me because I have little patience to debate the exceedingly imperfect application by mortals concerned with eating and drinking and living and breathing and procreating among lots of other, imo, important human considerations to the impractical, if not impossible precepts of the New Testament. Not to even mention the magic parts and then there is that wholly uplifting Book of Revelation....
     
  6. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    If i return to this thread, which has lost its original intent, it would be for logical, historical, or perceptual 'flaws' that are presented.

    Here was the initial framework:

    "I am taking the position that there are no logical, historical, or empirical flaws or fallacies in the Christian worldview.

    I will defend historical Christianity, based on the biblical NT manuscripts. I will not defend offshoots, departures, sects, caricatures, or extra-biblical traditions.

    My premise is that Christianity is a logical conclusion, from the facts of history, and the experiences of the followers of this worldview.

    It is not, 'blind faith!', or an irrational leap into the philosophical darkness."

    So, if anyone wants a formal debate, which is where this thread is placed, i will participate... for a while, anyway. ;)

    ..but i have no interest in the lame, 'Atheists vs Christians!' flame war, that these threads degenerate into.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
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  7. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Active Member

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    A sad day when philosophy cast off all pretense of having any purpose other than to seek to argue with the utmost cleverness.

    Empirical facts are all we actually know. There is no moral basis to hard science. A shame that so many intellects are lacking an education in math and physics.

    “Facts”?

    Ask for example the survivors of Nagasaki or Hiroshima what their observations were of the facts of nuclear fission.
     
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  8. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    I am old school. I believe in Reason, empiricism, and scientific methodology. I do not consider those to be inferior to feeling based perceptions, or beliefs, but, in fact, superior, and they are the basis for the success of western civilization.

    Reason is not God. Nor are our perceptions of reality absolute and inerrant. But they are tools for Discovery, and are important in any quest for Truth.

    He that would seriously set upon the search of truth, ought in the first place to prepare his mind with a love of it. For he that loves it not, will not take much pains to get it; nor be much concerned when he misses it. There is nobody in the commonwealth of learning who does not profess himself a lover of truth: and there is not a rational creature that would not take it amiss to be thought otherwise of. And yet, for all this, one may truly say, that there are very few lovers of truth, for truth's sake, even amongst those who persuade themselves that they are so. How a man may know whether he be so in earnest, is worth inquiry: and I think there is one unerring mark of it, viz. The not entertaining any proposition with greater assurance than the proofs it is built upon will warrant. Whoever goes beyond this measure of assent, it is plain receives not the truth in the love of it; loves not truth for truth's sake, but for some other bye-end. ~John Locke
     
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  9. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I wanted to build a swimming pool. Less than a block away was an "Elks" Country Club. They were starving for young families to join.Had a beautiful swimming pool and restaurant. My young kids would be very satisfied if I joined. To join, I paid 65/year, attended an extensive ritual and was initiated. I became an "Elk". I used the pool on a regular basis for about 5 years. Never attended one single event other than swimming. Never memorized a single ritual (and there were many) It has been almost 30 years since I paid a due or visited Elks. I have never, ever renounced Elks. I was grateful that my family used their pool. According to you, I am still an Elk. I am sure 100% of the members of that lodge would deny I am an Elk. Hitler, like many Catholics, was baptized as an infant when he didn't even know what was going on. I am a Christian but not a Catholic. I am not even allowed to take Communion in their services.No skin off my back. I follow Jesus.....Hitler didn't.
     
  10. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Active Member

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    It was always just a parlor game for the idle wealthy and educated, even among the Founders of the U.S. Those especially skilled at it can argue any side of an argument and win over those less skilled at semantics.


    There is the moral imperative to report one's findings as exactly as possible, assuming objectivity is possible.

    It's a bigger shame when intellects lie about what they actually know, regardless of their educations levels. Richard Dawkins, for instance, claims to be a scientist.

    Don't know of any who knew what they were looking at the time, so I would say they had no 'facts', just bewilderment and fantastic imaginary suppositions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
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  11. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Active Member

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    Nice. Thanks for that. Have to agree more or less with each of your points in this revised context.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  12. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    There is an assumption that there is a finite beginning.
    Who is the he you are referring to?
     
  13. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    As opposed to an infinite beginning?
    The author of Genesis, of course.
     
  14. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Yes, of course... his rock chisel was guided by God’s hand.
    Those of the religious persuasion have the answer; The Eternal God created everything.
    Science is still working on sorting if our universe is had a finite beginning or is the product of a larger infinite super universe or something eternally cyclical.
    I favored this story as part of the creation process.
    upload_2020-3-25_23-34-50.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  15. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    lol
     
  16. Farnsworth

    Farnsworth Active Member

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    I admit I didn't read the OP, just answered the title question.

    I'm an atheist, but I also admire Christianity and Judaism for their historical effects and social revolutions they set off, which have been the most beneficial paradigm shift in human history. these days I find it ironic that it is dying in the West, which is devolving, and growing in Asia and elsewhere, especially Red China, which is a heartening development i f they can survive. So, it's not a 'versus' for me, they are historically important and as a theology Christianity is indeed the most highly developed, and takes up where pre-Exile Judaism left off.

    The bible is a cohesive work, from start to finish, and a quite sophisticated work at that, written to express higher concepts on many levels of meaning and symbolism, and a dynamic cultural tool for tradition and guidance. No pagan works come remotely close, being mostly infantile, cognitively dissonant, and silly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
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  17. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    You’ve read all pagan works to arrive at that conclusion, of have you simply accepted the word of others, others that are influenced by their own biases that, even if they studied the religious do trans of others, begin with the conclusion, the doctrine they follow is the only correct one so all others are by definition, “mostly infantile, cognitively dissonant, and silly.”. Interesting considering that the Bible, the Tora, and the Koran, have exactly the same level of proof as the Mayan Codex of Ceibel. Remember, the three former works are supposed to be accepted on faith.
    What I find interesting, is the view that your argument is supported by your criteria and assumptions that ignores inconsistencies, contradictions, and failures of logic the works you cite contain.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020 at 2:58 PM

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