Are we pushing Russia to war?

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by JakeJ, Dec 28, 2020.

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Are we pushing Russia to war?

  1. We should use every means but WMDs to totally destroy Russia

    16.7%
  2. We are forcing Russia to engage in non-military counter economic warfare; political, hacking etc

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. If we don't stop trying to destroy Russia it could lead to conventional warfare between us

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. If we don't stop trying to destroy Russian and Russians it could lead to limited use of WMDs

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. If we don't stop deliberately harming Russia pushing Russia down it could lead to open nuclear war

    16.7%
  6. We should increase sanctions and isolating Russia - and there's nothing Russia can do about it.

    16.7%
  7. The RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! propaganda is to divert from looking at the real danger: CHINA

    50.0%
  8. The Cold War against the extinct USSR is too profitable to ever allow to end

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Russia remains the greatest danger against the USA so we must hold Russia down continuously

    16.7%
  10. We should stop trying to ruin Russia

    33.3%
  11. The US military industrial complex and warhawks perpetuate the Cold War for profit and power

    16.7%
  12. IDK/Other

    16.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    MULTIPLE CHOICE POLL & YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR VOTE

    I'll begin by discounting the claims that "Putin" is evil because that justification would apply to the majority of world leaders - many vastly worse.
    The Russian GDP is 1/5th that of the USA and the average income for working adults is less than $1000 per month. While we have major foreign military bases all over the world, Russia has few and all are near Russia's own boarder.
    [​IMG]
    https://www.rferl.org/a/where-are-us-and-russian-military-bases-in-the-world/28890842.html

    Russian society is collapsing. American politicians constantly call for ruining Russia, ever more sanctions, constantly claiming Russia is "engaging in acts of war" against the USA - constantly beating the drums of war. Our military people and many politicians seemed fixated on going to war in Syria - which has been an ally of Russia and with Russian bases there nearly as long as the USA has had based in Germany - and Russia is in Syria by invitation while we \came to be in Germany by conquering Germany.

    By nearly every measure Russia is a lightweight compared to the super heavy weight USA and dwarfed economically, in manufacturing and population to the EU.

    But historically any foreign country seeing weaknesses in Russia believing Russia could easily be defeated got crushed in wars of massive casualties. Russia is no flyweight in nuclear weaponry - enough to totally obliterate the USA in MAD. When Turkey was preparing to invade Northern Syria, Putin stated outright he would respond with tactical nuclear weapons if Turkey did.

    Should we continue in our quest to cause Russians to starve to death? Should we attack Russian ally bases in other countries directly? Should we keep arming insurgents against Russia? Are we forcing Russia to counter attack our endless attacks against Russia - economic etc? Are we - should we - keep pushing Russia to war?

    Personally, I think the real reasons are the massive profits and power that come with maintaining the Cold War against the extinct USSR forever - and to divert from the real enemy - CHINA - because American plutocrats are business partners with Chinese plutocrats and the Chinese government. In my opinion, we should let the massively wealthier EU deal with Russia and stop constantly pricking around with Russia. It is TOO danger a game to keep playing starve-the-Russian-people. Starving people may demand their leaders go to war one way or any other - who may have to as the only way to stay in power. This could start an escalation that can not be stopped - and it seems to be that escalation is growing already.

    MULTIPLE CHOICE POLL & YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR VOTE
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
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  2. pitbull

    pitbull Well-Known Member

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    You can't tell from his military bases that Putin is a criminal. There are other hints.

    • Putin supports the dictator Bashar in his efforts to slaughter parts of his population.
    • Putin tries to influence elections in Western countries and spreads anti-Western lies through his propaganda media.
    • Putin's hackers are spying on Western governments.
    • Putin's agents kill apostates in other countries, thus he undermines the national sovereignty of these countries.
    • Putin murders critical journalists and members of the opposition in his own country.
    • Putin committed genocide in Chechnya.
    The problem is not Russia, Putin and his gangster regime are.
    As a former KGB officer, this guy is extremely dangerous! :(
     
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  3. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The other side is evil has always been used to try to justify war. Of course, the evil of the leaders of other world leaders is ignored. We are not the police of the world. Other countries claim the same about us - killing people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, bombing within other countries etc, etc. Nearly all newspapers and television stations claim our president is evil. We spy on other countries all the and order people assassinated in other countries.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  4. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

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    The US supports and supported numerous dictators that slaughtered their populations or others,

    The US influences foreign elections and has done so since 1898 and it spreads pro-US and anti-other rhetoric.

    The US has continually spied on its own Allies and other governments and hacks into telecommunication systems of its Allies and other governments.

    The US has illegally overthrown the governments or attempted to murder the heads-of-State of 96 countries. That includes the attempted murder of Nasser of Egypt, Prime Minister Nehru of India, Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran, and many others.

    The US murders and tortures journalists in other countries to protect the puppet dictators it installs.

    See the SAVAK for details.

    Killing people not of your ethnicity is not genocide.
     
  5. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Putin runs Russia much like a mafia godfather, with his capos and soldiers. And sure, he spies on us.

    We spy on Russia too. A fascinating nonfiction book on how we spied on Russia in the 80s is “The Moscow Rules” written by a CIA agent who was directly involved in it in Moscow.

    The real threat is China, which has very likely compromised the incoming POTUS.
     
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  6. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    Relative to the idea of war with Russia or China, I think most people envision the idea of war representing the vision we project in fiction, nuclear war and it’s dark image of destruction. What I don’t think people really understand is the battlefield of the future, other than proxy skirmishes with bullets, rockets and bombs, the future battlefield will be cyber based, a war that has already be initiated and where the tentative probing of weaknesses, and defenses have already be happening to more than a a couple decades. In the last decade it has been accelerating. Few fully understand how to use the weapons effectively that are involved, and few of them know how the future battle will unfold, and few citizens among the antagonist countries know it’s already underway; the shots have already been fired. When the Mueller report came out, most were myopically focused on the implications relative to Trump, so the larger implication and threat has been nearly entirely missed, that of the Russian cyber threat and the even broader implications regarding the cyber threat posed by other belligerent. It reminds me how much of the world missed or dismissed the military buildup by Germany and Japan and the preliminary testing of their military tech in Spain’s civil war and the invasion of Manchuria. The recent hack of Government and fortune 500 companies can be seen as a probe, a deniable covert testing of cyber war capabilities which has not been seen as a harbinger of a growing threat. This is a new age, the armaments and military strategies have not been largely relegated to an academic status and not one we are mobilizing to meet with any real urgency.
     
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  7. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    There are neocon elements in our government that seem to want to push Russia into war although I can't for the life of me understand why. I'm not sure a war between Russia and the US could be contained at the conventional level, so i have to ask, what threat to the US does Russia pose that could be worth risking a nuclear war?
     
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  8. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    To war? Unlikely. - there's no upside in that for either side because neither would win even a conventional fight except at a cost in lives and dollars/rubles that would dwarf any benefit the victor might otherwise receive. Russian can't compete military at sea with the US and it doesn't have the manpower/firepower to occupy large tracks of western Europe for any length of time. As for the US and NATO. Could they invade Russian territory in the absence of nuclear retaliation - yes. Could they hold on to large chunks of it for any reasonable length of time - no. Would it be worth doing it even if they could ? Even more no.

    If there's a difference between the two sides its this, Putin probably would invade the West and seize territory if he could, dreaming of the old Soviet empire as he did so. The West? Wouldn't if they could. What would they gain that was worth the effort? Nothing they couldn't buy on the open market that Russia wasn't keen to sell if allowed.

    Look at every major war since theWW11. The days lots of dollars going in and not much useful coming out in return. Preparing for war might be profitable, fighting one isn't.

    The west might however be pushing Russia into irrelevancy - with Putin's (and therefore Russia's help). To the extent the two sides disengage economically Russia is the loser. It needs western markets far more that the West needs Russia, with the exception natural gas and perhaps some rare elements. Demand for gas is going to decline as Europe goes carbon neutral and its Russians no. 1 export earner. So that source of revenue is on borrowed time. Whats left?

    So Russia faces a declining demand for its primary products, a declining population and increased levels of sanctions on its other industries to Putin's penchant for extraterritorial assassination.
     
  9. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Russia and China go hand in hand. Both must be effectively destroyed in order for the world to every have any hope of real peace.
     
  10. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

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    When talk turns to destroying a perceived enemy, it always results in a reciprocal point of view that generates mutual fear, and from fear, wars are justified... everyone loses. Wars continue until solutions are found through the dialogue and treaty that allow belligerents to coexist. Why not jump over the fear and war stages directly to the dialogue and treaty phase to find how to coexist?
    BTW, as I posted previously, the next war will likely be fought on a cyber battlefield and the skirmishes have already started, that fact was the salient, over looked point, of the Mueler Report.
     
  11. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    Wrong on all counts. Oh I could propose a treaty with the Chinese and Russians but I'm certain they would never agree to it.
     
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are also many war-hawk semi-progressive Democrats who seem to want to push Russia into war.

    That's something that's not talked about as much, and many people don't realize.

    Dayton3 (the poster immediately above me) would probably fall into that category.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021 at 12:50 PM
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  13. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a Democrat
     
  14. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But you are a Trump-hater, and you're definitely not conservative or a Republican.
    please correct me if I am wrong, I will then immediately delete my above comments
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021 at 1:01 PM
  15. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    I relentless supported President Trump for four years on this board and three others. I simply soured on him post election based on his words and actions.
     

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