Army Combat Fitness Disaster: Units Refusing to Take Test, Medics Bailing

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Lil Mike, Apr 3, 2021.

  1. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    A little poison goes a long ways. Fact is, for all President Trumps faults, he's still a far better American than pretty much anyone in the Democrat media and party. He made the middle east safer, our borders more secure, our military stronger, our justice system more just, and our entire people more prosperous. Not to mention other things like energy independence and consecrating millions of acres of land for conservation, and proving that the media is not a free press but rather a point man running a narrative for the lefts counter culture movement. Yet you bring up some sophomoric private conversation he had years ago with a shock jock to mar him and ignore his administrations enviable list of accomplishments for America. tsk, tsk Carry on.
     
  2. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    No, but I know when someone's trolling a thread when I see it.
     
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  3. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm not "woke", so I don't believe women should be in the ground combat arms - infantry and artillery. But if those jobs must be open to them, then yes, they should have to meet the same physical standards as men, and those physical standards should not be lowered to accommodate them. Perhaps, in retrospect, I should modify that list of standards, to wit:

    1) Delta Force
    2) Ranger Battalion/Green Berets
    3) Combat Arms
    4) Basic Training standard for men
    5) Basic Training standard for women

    So, if a man or a woman is not in one of the Combat Arms, he or she must maintain a fitness level equivalent to the level they attained in Basic Training.

    If a man or a woman wants to go into a Combat Arms MOS or higher, they must meet that higher fitness and strength standard.
     
  4. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Eh, I cant say women should be in combat, but I do think they should be able to choose to be in combat. I think its gonna be a bad idea for a while... but I think with time we can work it into a good idea. I think women may eventually exceed men in some combat roles, like static defense, mobile recon, helicopter pilots... tho I think it'll be tough to establish so long as we ignore the fact that men and women are different with different strengths and weaknesses.

    But ya, everyone performing the same job should have the same job requirements.
     
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  5. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Since you mentioned me ...

    A lot to unpack there. Note the bolded items in your post.

    I have not defended Trump's personal faults. In fact, I knew they would ultimately lead to his political downfall, although I did not foresee the January 6th riot at the Capitol. What I expected was that he would lose the 2020 election through self-inflicted wounds.

    Feckless f'r? ... In some ways, perhaps. But look what we've got now. We've got Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Shumer in charge, and a shell of man in the White House who I don't think really knows what's going on.

    All volunteer force ... These young people are there because they want to be there. I think they are awesome, and I do not want them partnered up with some draftee who doesn't share that motivation and commitment.
     
  6. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Hmmm I vividly remember predicting this exact thing would happen months ago on this very forum. Almost to the letter, as I said back then, you can play the Army like a fiddle.

    Remember those folks saying "hahaha women and weaklings are about to get purged!!" and "this is how it should be!!!". And remember me saying this is zero chance this will fly no matter what big Army thinks.....

    Pepperidge farm remembers,

    The test itself isn't hard, it's arguably easier than the old APFT. The problem is that it takes way too damn long and it takes way too much equipment. I was able to take a APFT in an outpost in Afghanistan during the surge as it was designed to be able to be taken anywhere at any time. There is no chance deployed units can take this ACFT in an outpost in Afghanistan. Those "your deployment may vary" folks who live on huge FOB's with PX's and whatnot can take this thing, but no grunt unit is dragging connex's full of weightlifting crap to their basketball court sized remote outpost...

    As I said, the Army always has to be "different" and they never admit when it's time to admit failure and cut the sling load. Instead they'll do what they've done here, ignore virtually everybody who is telling them that their new PT test is stupid and just keep doubling down in the face of any sort of rationale whatsoever.

    The overwhelming vast majority of the Army, I'm talking like 90%+, is civilian type jobs that you wear ACU's while doing. Very few people in the Army actually do "Army" stuff that civilians think of when they think "Army". The physical requirements of the average "Soldier" in the Army are about the same as working at the DMV, or an Amazon warehouse if you lift things. 90% of the Army aren't Infantry grunts or Tankers or Gun Bunnies or Rangers. They are desk clerks who sit at computers all day checking emails and doing paperwork. They don't need to be able to deadlift or leg tuck. And for those claiming that "what is all hell breaks loose and they have to fight" well, if the S1 clerk is ever shooting her rifle at ANYBODY then we've already lost the war. And yes that includes an all hands on deck scenario like WW3. The Marine's like to play that game of "Infantry first", the Army isn't like that. No you aren't a "rifleman first", you're the S1 clerk or logistics or whatever and you probably shot your rifle twice a year and you didn't qualify but they just said you did because you suck and it takes too long to put you through the range 10 times.

    This test is all about optics and propaganda. We always poke fun at the Air Force (chair force) for their "civilian-esque" corporate desk job lifestyle. The reality is that the majority of the Army is the exact same way and is always getting closer to that as technology advances and time goes on. The problem is that the Army itself doesn't want to admit that so it keeps pretending that we're "different" some how. There's only a handful of MOS's in the Army that actually do "Army" stuff, the rest of them are literally the exact same desk jobs that the Air Force does all day. And it's OK to admit that. That doesn't make us less lethal. Our lethality doesn't come from the fact that our desk clerks can deadlift and run 2 miles in 12 mins and shoot expert at the range. It comes from the fact that our handful of MOS's who's JOB IT IS to do that stuff do it well. And the fact that we have so much money that we'll send attack helicopters to shoot a single human being with a $150,000 tank buster missile.

    But we can keep pretending that the entire Army is "Army" and that we all fight wars so we need to be able to pass this ridiculously complex ACFT. It doesn't bother me none, I think it's funny. This new "tougher PT test that you can't just roll out of bed and pass" is anything but....I literally did just roll out of bed and pass the thing with ease while hungover with 2 bad legs as I explained a few months ago. It's not hard, it's just dumb.

    Psssst hey Army, your new PT test is stupid, get rid of it. It's ok to admit you ****ed up and wasted tons of money. You waste tons of money all the time, this is no different.
     
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  7. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member

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    You have defended his personal faults by defending his Presidency.

    I find your opinion regarding Trump disturbing on many levels, in particular I find that you have chosen the particular signature lines you have here and how they contrast with Trump's fundamental character:

    “The supreme quality for leadership is unquestionably integrity. Without it, no real success is possible.” - Dwight D Eisenhower

    "Humility must always be the portion of any man who receives acclaim earned in the blood of his followers and the sacrifices of his friends." - Dwight D Eisenhower

    I do not claim to be any type of exceptional judge of character, but such skill is not required to assess Trump's character.

    3000+ lawsuits. As I pointed out to you previously here in this forum. How many lawsuits was Ike or Reagan involved in? Or even Bush or Cheney? Hell, even Nixon....

    I prefer that we have a mandatory two year service requirement for men and women and maybe implement it as part of the "free" college ideas that are being floated by some on the left. Our nation has no skin in the game. We have forgotten service members serving ambiguous goals in places of very questionable value to our national security. Afghanistan ffs, coming up on 20 years? For what?
     
  8. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    This wasn't Obama, or Trump, or Biden. This was an Army internal thing. The Army has an infamous track record of always going against the grain of the other branches of the military no matter what it is even if it's stupid stuff.

    Roll your uniform sleeves up while fighting a war in the desert?
    Marines: Sure it's hot
    Air Force: Sure it's hot
    Navy: Sure it's hot
    Army: We must allocate $2 million for a special investigation over the course of years regarding the pro's and con's of sleeve rolling in the desert and ask experts to weigh the risks vs rewards of skin cancer vs heat stroke and how that will impact combat effectiveness and unit cohesiveness and lethality. We'll get back to you in 10 years.
    Ok we got back to you. No

    It doesn't matter what it is, whether it's leave forms, safety, or PT or anything else. If everyone else is cruising down the interstate perfectly fine then leave it to the Army to take a hard right turn off the next exit for no reason at all just "because". I swear I believe the Army big brass board meetings MO is to just look at what the other 3 branches are doing and do the opposite no matter what the topic is.

    So while Obama and the Republican Congress under his watch, were no friends of the military (sequestration), this wasn't their fault. This is the result of dummies in high Army brass who buy into the notion that you should "always leave the place better than how you found it". Sure you can always be better, but there is a point where "good enough" IS "good enough" and trying to "fix" something that ain't broken will actually break it and make it worse than it was.

    This ACFT is that thing. Was the old APFT perfect? Absolutely not. But this new ACFT is a classic example of using an extremely complex solution to solve a very easy problem that isn't even a real problem and in turn caused an even bigger problem.

    PT test:
    Marines: Pull ups, crunches, run
    Air Force: Push ups, sit ups, run
    Navy: Push ups, sit ups, run
    Army: Durrrr ok check this out. Get a whole gym or outdoor field, measure **** out, hex bar deadlift, throw a medicine ball, drag a sled, leg tuck, crab run sideways gallop thing, run.

    This is seriously nothing new this is just the first time in a while that the civilian population heard about one of the Army's dumb escapades. We always do dumb stuff like this that no other branch does most people just don't hear about it outside of the Army.
     
  9. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Because the old 3 event APFT wasn't really a good measure of one's "effectiveness" in combat. There's always the story of the little 110lb dude who can run 2 miles in 10 mins and do 100 pushups and situps and get a perfect score on the PT test. But...he's a 110lb dude, if I get shot and need to be carried out in full battle armor then that 110lb dude is worthless because he's not physically strong he's just "fit". Meanwhile there's a 220lb dude who can't run or do sit ups but he can carry me and my buddy on his shoulders in full battle armor if I get shot. But since he can't pass the PT test he was considered "unfit" for the Army.

    So Army folks complained about that for decades and eventually the Army did what the Army always does. Instead of adjusting the height and weight standards and increasing the 2 mile run time like everybody asked they took a nuclear bomb and dropped it on the ant hill of a problem. We said we wanted them to stop flagging people as "fat" or "overweight" if they didn't meet the Army's archaic height vs weight standards that were published when ****ing I Love Lucy premiered on TV. Back when Americans were normal sized people. Update it to modern times where people are bigger, and increase the run time because it's the modern Army and running isn't really that necessary anymore. Basically saying we want stronger people, and strength = more mass and more mass = slower running.

    Army decided to spend millions of dollars and hire a bunch of civilian fitness folks to come up with this whacky ass ACFT thing as the answer to the complaints. Which in classic Army fashion is absolutely NOT what anybody was asking for....

    So now the geniuses in big Army decided to focus on making "stronger" Soldiers with the new ACFT but still haven't updated the archaic height and weight standards which is something they are currently "looking in to doing but require more data". (That's the Army's favorite answer to anything). And they also kept the 2 mile run in there that everybody hates.

    They took everyone's complaints, created a whole new system that addressed 1 complaint while ignoring the other complaints and added more stuff for everyone to complain about. So now this new PT test is even less popular than the old one because the Army is incapable of simply doing exactly what anybody ever asks them to do. They always have to "Army" it up and accidentally **** it up.

    Army: "How can we fix the APFT that you guys are complaining about?"
    Soldiers: "Get rid of the run or increase the time, increase the height and weight standards for modern era so normal sized people who lift weights 3 days a week stop getting flagged as overweight"
    Army: "Let's spend tens of millions of taxpayer dollars and years of research and data collection and come up with a plan with a bunch of civilian physical fitness trainers who have no idea what the Army requires. Aaannnd....ACFT!"
    Soldiers: "How in the literal **** did you get that out of what we said...."

    That's why.
     
  10. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    disagree, they have been dumbing the standards because the Army hasn't been battling worthy adversaries.

    how fit do they have to be to fight guys who live in caves in iraq and afghanistan?

    a good combat role would provide readiness
     
  11. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) No, I have not defended his personal faults, and, pre-Covid, I believed he would lose the 2020 election because of them and them alone. I did support his policy positions, however, and I still do. His personality does not effect me, my children, or my grandchildren. His policy decisions do. I supported him for his policy positions, not his personality.

    2) I thoroughly believe those statements made by Ike. It's too bad Trump didn't live by them. If he did, he would still be the President today most likely.

    3) My son is a Purple Heart veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan. When he was hurt, his life was saved by motivated "creme of the crop" fellow warriors. I wouldn't want any of our young heroes fighting along side anything less. Also, it takes about a year to fully develop a service member to a point where they are actually contributing rather than being trained and mentored. Basic Training, Advanced Training, and then on-the-job training eats up most of the first year of service. On a two-year enlistment, we really only get one year of actual contribution to the service. It is immensely costly to train a service member. If you want to make that mandatory for all, you are looking at increasing the Defense Budget exponentially, while at that same time, not getting much back in return.

    Seth :flagus: :salute:
     
  12. DentalFloss

    DentalFloss Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't that be a pretty clear example of "be careful what you wish for"?
     
  13. joesnagg

    joesnagg Well-Known Member

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    Considering that THEIR forces aren't ate up with politically mandated PC bullsh*t and operating under "rules of engagement" more suited to preschoolers playing dodgeball, that might not be such a good idea.
     
  14. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    This test was dumb in general regardless of gender. The Army just arbitrarily made up some fitness standards that don't coincide with the actual jobs that the majority of the Army does. If this were a Combat Arms specific test then I'd be all for it and I 100% agree that both males and females should have the exact same standards if they want to enter those MOS's. But to make this the test for the entire Army overall, an Army in which 90%+ of Soldiers require as much "fitness" as the DMV clerk is stupid. The females bombed this test in droves due to the leg tuck which is an exercise that the female body is biologically not built to be capable of doing. They don't have the core strength by nature and getting them to that point would take professional athlete levels of training. Literally, many professional female athletes can't even do a leg tuck.

    I'm all for laughing at the irony of how this exposes what anybody with a logical brain has understood since the beginning of time, men and women are different. But this test has zoned in on the differences that don't even matter regardless of gender. Men and women being different biologically doesn't matter in the vast majority of jobs in the Army because most jobs in the Army are desk jobs. And out of all the female Soldiers currently serving about 99.7% of them serve in desk jobs or jobs that require no level of fitness anyway. Having some basic level of fitness to be in the military is fine, it makes sense even though most people in the military do not require any more fitness than it takes to type on this forum. But requiring everyone in the Army to have this level of fitness regardless of MOS is stupid. Neither men nor women need to be able to do these exercises to perform their jobs proficiently in the modern Army unless you are in a handful of MOS's.
     
  15. Grey Matter

    Grey Matter Well-Known Member

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    1,2) I'm not sure how to remain on good terms with you or anyone else on this forum that finds ways to justify their support for Trump. Your failure to acknowledge the inconsistency between your thorough belief in Ike's words versus your justification for Trump's complete lack of complying with them is a gap greater than the Grand Canyon. Ike did not say, "The supreme quality for leadership is unquestionably policy. Without it, no real success is possible." And as far as your second quote is concerned, well, your lack of perspective is seemingly and amazingly beyond reason if you choose to include this particular quote on your signature line and attempt to simultaneously defend the most minute action of Trump as the President of the United States. Trump is practically a poster child for the dictionary definition of a lack of humility, ffs.

    Your assertion that his policy positions can be differentiated from his personality flaws are questionable, to be kind and within the etiquette this forum requires. You favor his final 90 or so day policies to drive a wedge into the fundamental US government value of a free and fair election to determine who holds the office? You favor his policy to be the first President to ever hold continual campaigns beginning in his first year in office? You favor his one and only major piece of legislation to drop corporate tax rates permanently and personal taxes temporarily? How about that wall that Mexico was going to pay for? Nope, you support the policy to take the money from military base improvements?

    And then there is January 6th. Sadly, many of our members seem unable to acknowledge that HRC would have been better than this disgraceful episode in US history. The only President in the history of the Republic to attempt to overturn an election. Good for You?

    3) What is your son's opinion of our efforts in Afghanistan?
     
  16. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    disagree, fitness will make them more disciplined

    obesity is a problem from self control.
     
  17. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    they will be made to diet in a kinetic war with russia and china
     
  18. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hillary Clinton was also the poster child for a lack of humility, and she was a serial liar. She was also a warmonger. We are fortunate that she never became President, in my opinion. She also paid for a sham Steele dossier that was the basis of a two-year bs investigation of Russian collusion. If ever there was a poster child for a lack of integrity, it was her.

    Barack Obama oversaw a joke of an investigation into Hillary Clinton's server that was intended to exonerate her from Day 1. Obama knew it, the FBI knew it, the Attorney General knew it, and Hillary knew it. How's that for integrity for you?

    And Biden? This is a man who worked furiously to prevent the integration of schools in Delaware when he was a senator. His crime bill put tens of thousands of young black men in prison. You should listen to the speech he gave on the floor of the Senate in support of the bill. There are parts of it that could have been written by the Ku Klux Klan. You can change your suit or your hairstyle, and he did eventually change his rhetoric. But you don't just suddenly change your heart. The man is a white racist in his heart. Additionally, he sold his position as Vice President to the Chinese in exchange for business deals for his family. It worries me that we now have a President that the Chinese can blackmail. And let us not forget that there was a credible, corroborated sexual assault allegation made against him. Biden just blithely denied it, and all the "woke" leading Democrats instantly claimed that they believed him. I guess all their sanctimonious speeches during and after the Kavanaugh hearings were lies and bs.

    And then there's Trump with all of his obvious personality faults. And as he put those faults on display for all to see, we saw outrage and an outpouring of unmitigated hatred. And even now, after he is no longer President, it lingers. You even said you don't know how you can stay on good terms with me, and anonymous poster on a forum. And all I said was that I supported his policy positions.

    What I'm seeing here is double standard.

    FYI, January 6th was the day Trump lost my support to govern further. I believe strongly that if he plays any role in upcoming elections, he will drive away Independents, insuring Democratic wins. The best thing he can do for Republicans is to quietly disappear.

    My son's opinion of Afghanistan ....

    He is a warrior. He hates the islamic jihadists, whether they be Al Qaeda, ISIS, or the taliban. He has no regrets for being intimately involved in destroying our enemies. At the same time, neither he nor I believe that Afghanistan is a country that can have a peaceful, representative democracy, except at the point of a gun - an American gun. It is a country where tribe counts more than country. It is a place where corruption always outweighs honesty and integrity or what's right or fair. It is country where brute power outweighs the rule of law, justice, or the good of the people. We both believe that trying to bring democracy and peace to that country was a noble goal, but that it is doomed to fail. Therefore, we should leave now. Not one more American family should lose a son, daughter, or spouse for that country.

    One cannot build a beautiful statue out of sand.
     
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