Assisted suicide

This is one we don't talk about often and I'm kind of at a loss of where to put this. So I decided on this some forum because I'm asking for people's opinions.

I don't know how to feel about it. I've put down a dog because their life however short it may be was going to be misery. Sure I could have given the dog chemotherapy and maybe prolonged its life for about a year.

But I felt that was cruel. So I opted for euthanization.

The difference between animals and people is that people have a mind of their own. I had a grandfather that became ill when he got into his '80s. He had to have a pacemaker installed and he completely lost vision. He later decided to sign a DNR.

He was a worker all of his life so I think he really hated being a burden. Further the quality of his life was quite diminished.

I'm not sure he would have ever opted before assisted suicide but he did tell my aunt who was taking care of him and his final days not to resuscitate him.

She respected his wishes.

So I want to hear people on both sides of this subject I want to hear your rationale for your position and why you think we should or shouldn't do this or if you're in the same boat as me and it's just not something you can sort out you can let me know that too.

 

~ Yes we all know someone who used compassion and logic to end a pet's life. It gets complicated when humans are involved. We can't even decide a humane effective way to end life in Capitol Punishment.
I believe that informed consenting adults of sound mind should be able to choose this option. Actually it is done routinely in an indirect fashion with Hospice patients at the end of life.

" Look what I made in science class ..."​

 

I could not disagree more with giving medical institutions a financial incentive to kill their patients. We have given medical institutions a financial incentive to cut the genitalia off of children and look where that got us. Killing yourself is not complicated nor difficult.... millions have successfully done it without any help from doctors.

Regarding hospice, they keep upping the painkillers until the patient dies. They did that for my brother and it was humane. They were not trying to kill him, they just increased the pain killer until he was no longer in pain. Eventually it killed him, it probably shortened his life by a week or so.

 

~ Nobody suggests giving medical institutions financial incentives for euthanasia.

 

Easy to say such when not confronted with such a desperate situation.

 

Not what's being talked about

No, we haven't and at best a strawman

Yeah, it is

You make it sound like they have an incentive to kill their patients, oh wait, they weren't TRYING to kill the patient (wink).

 

Having reached an age where this starts to creep into your thoughts because of physical ailments I don't have a problem with giving people the option.

 

It depends. I would never advocate for it for purely psychological reasons, unless the person was coincidentally aged and physically infirm.

When it comes to the standard 'ushering out' in palliative care .. the DNR and the slow overdose (over a few days) of morphine, I think it's excellent. It provides a pain and awareness-free period in which loved ones can spend time with the living person. Say what wants to be said, warm hands to be held tight, etc.

I'm 100% for it when it comes to animals, as long as they meet the criteria. People doing it because Rover needs diabetes medication or surgery for example, does not meet the criteria. That's a human disinclination to do what needs to be done. Claiming inability to afford medical care doesn't cut it either. If you can't pay for such things you have no business owning a pet.

 

It’s clear to me it’s ethical in some cases. I think the devil is in the details. We don’t want people to be pressured to die or die due to mental illness. I recall Oregon’s death with dignity act seemed good. It’s their life. Killing yourself “well” is not easy especially if you’re bedbound and terminally ill. If it goes wrong it’ll be very messy and/or painful. The idea is often to die painlessly and with dignity. Certain prescriptions are ideal for this.

 

well I do take a bit of an issue with capital punishment but it's not because someone dies it's because the state thinks they have the right to kill people. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with a state being allowed to have that power.

well you make a point here essentially hospice is just keeping them comfortable until they expire but it's not assistance in helping them end their suffering.

​

 

When my grandfather finally died it was sad because there were no more memories to make. But I'm glad that he no longer had to suffer. People do make this decision as in pulling the plug. But essentially that's the point at where you turn off the machines that are keeping them alive it's a bit different than assisted suicide.

Making the call for someone else would not be suicide. So I think that's one of those things that should be up to the person dying.

 

this isn't about someone killing someone else this is about someone deciding they want to live no longer. The hospital should absolutely have no input in it whatsoever.

I think a law banning any hospital staff, contractors, volunteers and so forth from even mentioning it as an option should be in place if this was decided to be a legal thing.

And the penalty should be pretty hefty I'm thinking 25 million dollar fine and restrictions of grants for 5 years. If they violate.

so you do understand that when there's no hope something has to be done.

I'm just wondering why put them through the hospice? If they don't want to do that.

 

Certainly agree with you the devil's in the details and someone brought up something that I never even thought about.

 

I don't know why I think about it... I'm fine little to no pain no conditions and I'm 40

 

~ I agree.

 

We have to be very clear of the words here. Euthanasia is very different from physician assisted suicide which is what this thread is about. . You take your own life and use your own hand to put those pills in your mouth and swallow them. Oregon's Death with Dignity law of 1997, which 7 other states like California Washington have mostly copied, is sitting right here.
https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PROVI...RESEARCH/DEATHWITHDIGNITYACT/Pages/index.aspx
To participate, a patient must be: (1) 18 years of age or older, (2) capable of making and communicating health care decisions for him/herself, and (3) diagnosed with a terminal illness that will lead to death within six months.

• 1. The patient must make two oral requests to the attending physician, separated by at least 15 days.
  2. The patient must provide a written request to the attending physician, signed in the presence of two witnesses, at least one of whom is not related to the patient.
  3. The attending physician and a consulting physician must confirm the patient's diagnosis and prognosis.
  4. The attending physician and a consulting physician must determine whether the patient is capable of making and communicating health care decisions for him/herself;
  5. If either physician believes the patient's judgment is impaired by a psychiatric or psychological disorder (such as depression), the patient must be referred for a psychological examination;
  6. The attending physician must inform the patient of feasible alternatives to the DWDA including comfort care, hospice care, and pain control;
  7. The attending physician must request, but may not require, the patient to notify their next-of-kin of the prescription request.
  A patient can rescind a request at any time and in any manner. The attending physician will also offer the patient an opportunity to rescind his/her request at the end of the waiting period following the initial request to participate.
  

 

Here's a summary of how its worked since 1998 through 2021 "Since the law was passed in 1997, a total of 3,280 people have received prescriptions under the DWDA and 2,159 people (66%) have died from ingesting the medications"


[Here I took the liberty of rounding up to nearest percentage]
Of those who received the prescription and died using it, the youngest was 25 years old, the oldest was 102, About 77% were 55 years or older. 80% were high school or college graduates, 5% were not
and 15 % were data unknown. 91% were enrolled in Hospice. 42% were privately insured, 57% were Medicaid, Medicare or Veterans insurance, 19% uninsured.

73% were diagnosed with cancer. 11% neurological diseases, 6% heart or circulatory disease, another 6% COPD, the other 5% were AIDS, liver disease, metabolic diseases etc.

92% died at home, and the medium range of time between the date of the first request and the day of ingestion and death was about 45 days. It takes on average 5 minutes from ingestion to unconsciousness, and another 25 minutes until death is recorded.

 

Assisted suicide opens up a dangerous door and creates a slippery slope. The trouble will be to make sure that all the persons receiving assisted suicide are actually appropriate candidates and are not being pushed, pressured, or coerced into it in any way.

Some horror stories have already emerged in places that have legalized it.

Another issue, I think once a society has legalized assisted suicide, in a way it devalues life, and will lead to a situation in that society where people will be more likely to euthanize people in other medical situations.
You want an example of that? Read this thread:
AGAIN! UK judge denies parents' right to take child to Italy for treatment
If you read towards the end on the second page, you can read about how they finally euthanized the child, against the wishes of his parents.

If assisted suicide was perfectly normal, then euthanizing a child wasn't really something to be seen as that out of the ordinary. It becomes a slippery slope. One thing sets a precedent for other situations.

I fundamentally believe in the right to assisted suicide, but before that law is passed, I think the law needs to be very carefully considered and worded in detail and there need to be many safeguards.

Otherwise, I predict there are going to be old people in the hospital who are going to feel guilt-tripped or have their arm twisted by their family members, even though they still want to live.

 

Yes, there is an easy answer - the medical profession has to be committed to life.
Period.

DNR is not euthanasia, DNR is letting someone die naturally.

There is no shortage of monsters out there that want to kill, kill, kill... all they need is a green light to do it in the name of "compassion".

End of life is sometimes very difficult.

 

There exist some situations that are obvious candidates for assisted suicide.

But there exist other situations that are more borderline and would be very controversial.

I don't think we should let our view about the first affect our view about the second.

Maybe all of these cases should be handled by some hospital bioethics panel which would be required to give their approval?

 

I believe it is one's own choice to stay alive or end your life. I see physician assisted suicide as the most rational and humane way in the mainstream, but if that's a step too far I would at least be okay with immunity for family or close friends, etc, who assist. Require a psych evaluation if you need to, whatever.

I don't think we have the right to deny a person a humane death(feels weird typing that but it's the truth here). If you able bodied, you can probably handle the task of ending your life with little or no help. So that leaves the people who aren't mobile or aren't capable for one reason or another. They don't get that choice, because someone has to help them. Most of us understand the concept of mercy. Many of us have probably watched the scenes in movies where someone gives a merciful death to someone who was going to die anyway and understood it for what it was.

Much like abortion, I see this as an issue where some medical staff may choose not to honor that type of request, and that's fine. But others will, and they should be allowed to help those who want to end their lives.

 

There comes a time where you realize that life is finite.

 

Suicide should not be illegal so long as it is absolutely unequivocally and cogently requested and desired by the individual. Euthanizing pets has no relevance or connection.

 

The slippery slope always wins.

Canadian veteran suffering from PTSD and a traumatic brain injury was offered EUTHANASIA when he called Veteran Affairs Canada hotline for help