Atheist prayers can be barred by House chaplain, appeals court says

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Bluesguy, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    The Jesus character said that people would do their praying in private. If people believe in him why don't they follow his advice? He gets pissed when people pray in public.
     
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  2. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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  3. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Banned

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    Theists just troll, never provide facts.
     
  4. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    We do, but it's a student problem, not a teacher one.
     
  5. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Banned

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    Trolls never provide facts, thus cannot teach anything expect lies.

    That makes it a "teacher" problem, not a student problem.
     
  6. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    And after "flouncing", telling the liberals off in here, I haven't been back for months.


    But it doesn't, does it? You insist on this theoretical separation of the link between good behavior and religion, between morality and religion, between community building and religion, between conservatism and religion, and between the secularism of the government and the irreligion of the people, but for all practical purposes, they don't exist. They march in lockstep, arm in arm. If you have one, you get the other. Theoretically, they don't have to be linked, but in reality, they are. Honestly, this seems to be a fundamental flaw in your thinking. You see the evidence of correlation and point to the exception as being the rule instead of the majority. If I told you that 99% of all criminals in the US have five or more tattoos (it's high but I don't know if it's that high), you would point at the 1% and say, "But they don't ALL have five tattoos." When making a statistical point, the minority don't figure into the equation. Saying that tattoos and criminality are not necessarily linked doesn't change the point that criminals have a lot of tattoos. In the same way, religion promotes a great many good things in society in a way that irreligion or secular humanism does not; whether secular humanism can or not doesn't enter into it, it simply fails to do so.



    This isn't really true because as I pointed out before, there's no distinction in Islam between the state and religion, and in fact, there are a great many laws in Islam that refer to the state and not to religion. Ayn Rand talked about the fight between the priest and the king in Western society. Mohammed's great insight was to combine them both into one bloody warlord who was the society's link to god. Moses could have done the same, but he did the world a great service by making his brother and their descendants into the priests while the leaders of the society would be generals, then judges, then kings.


    That's not really true. Christians are being forced to violate their religious tenets by having to tolerate, and in some cases even support, homosexuality. The secular state is stepping on the Christians' religious beliefs. The secular state is forcing people to be irreligious, even anti-Christian. The same is even more true in far more secular states like China and North Korea.


    You're suggesting that an Islamic state is no worse than a Christian state, but as we see around the world, that's just not the case. As noted above, you want to argue the theoretical rather than the practical realities. Could an Islamic state theoretically be a good, moral, free society? Theoretically, I suppose so, though it wouldn't be very Islamic in that sense. In reality, they simply aren't, and they tend to get more repressive over the years rather than more free. Only 25% of Turkey's population is fundamentalist, but it's the fundamentalists who have been taking over more and more power in Turkey, until you got Erdogan, who famously said, "There is no moderate Islam, Islam is Islam." The only time an Islamic society becomes more free is when a secularist dictator takes control, as Kemal Ataturk, Hafez Assad, the Shah of Iran, and Saddam Hussein all did. Once the dictator is gone, the Islamic fundamentalists begin to retake control, or as in the case of Iran, instantly.



    *shrugs* We're not arguing about whether or not the church is trying to set up a theocracy here, but whether exclusion of the church sets up what essentially amounts an atheocracy, the complete exclusion of God from the political sphere.


    How does that make their viewpoint irrelevant? If Thomas Jefferson didn't feel oppressed by the Constitution as it was written and religion practiced in his day but Christians today do feel oppressed by the secular state, that to me says that something has gone fundamentally wrong with the American system. To say that their impression of being oppressed is wrong is akin to saying that their opinions don't matter. There are plenty of people whose impressions of being oppressed is nonsense, like feminists today who think women are oppressed when women earn the majority of bachelor's degrees, can enter any occupation, can make any amount of money and keep and hold property, etc. Women are not oppressed in today's society. But Christians can compare to how things were just a few short decades ago and feel repressed, and they aren't wrong.


    But I have shown evidence that irreligiosity leads to criminality and immorality, so claiming Sweden as counter-proof does require more than just presenting it as an example. I have also shown that Sweden is suffering from its own steep decline as a society, which I will lay partially at the feet of irreligion, partially at the feet of the Pax Americana.

    The idea isn't very strong because you've had fifty years of secular governments repressing it. This is my point. An irreligious government creates an irreligious people. An irreligious people leads to a steep decline in society. Your cultural elites have created this situation, as ours have here, and then become alarmed by the results, but then try to do more secularization, more "diversity", more pluralism, to fix the problems they created, but of course, those all just make the problem worse, not better.
     
  7. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    No it does NOT go without saying. In fact, most of the world says otherwise. Your begging the question doesn't alter that.
     
  8. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Banned

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    Utter nonsense, as usual from you. You have not polled "most of the world" to be able to support that statement, meaning it is misleading at best or false in it entirety, Any question that I ask is to gain information unlike you who only wish to dictate beliefs.
     
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  9. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    "A new survey shows that 51 percent of people in the world believe in God. Only 18 percent don’t and 17 percent are undecided."

    https://www.christianpost.com/news/global-poll-most-believe-in-god-afterlife-49994/

    You might want to check your facts before you deny them. I don't dictate beliefs, I report the truth. You just spout off without knowing what you're talking about.
     
  10. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Banned

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    You might want to check and see how accurate your precious surveys were in the last presidential election. Surveys can and are designed to lead to the desired results of those commissioning them. Not to mention that you intimated that you had personal knowledge of what the majority of people think and did not reference that your claim is second had.

    BTW, look at your posted source of this poll and just try to believe that they have no agenda. You appear to have been duped, again.
     
  11. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Again you spout off without knowing what you're talking about. The source was a major polling firm based in London. The poll was of 18,000 people in 23 countries.

    "Ipsos MORI's Social Research Institute looks at public attitudes to key public services. Issues such as identity, social cohesion, physical capital and the impact of place on attitudes are all key themes of the Institute's work. The company also specialises in mass media, brand loyalty, marketing and advertising research. The organisation maintains a freely available archive of opinion polls and public attitude research from 1970 onwards on its UK website.

    The company is a member of the British Polling Council and Market Research Society."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipsos_MORI


    If I were to talk about Americans, that number would be closer to 80%.
     
  12. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Banned

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    Just because they are foreign, you assume that they have more veracity than domestic polls? Point of fact, they don't. Just because you chose to believe them doesn't make them true. Even one such as you should realize this. Because you continue to fool yourself says much more about you than you intended. Also you vehement objections, one sided as they are, reveal your true agenda.

    Also, as I stated before, the polls always reflect what their creators want for a response. Doesn't matter where they are taken, they are biased. As you appear to be.
     
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  13. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    From your "major polling" source;

    Therefore your 51% is REDUCED to a mere 28% who believe in an imaginary "creator"!

    But this really puts the "creator" in proper perspective/

    Islamic nations SHARE a common "creator" with fundamentalist Christian zealots who also believe in a "creator".

    That says VOLUMES and we have a "major polling firm based in London" that establishes that connection for us!

    :roflol:
     
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  14. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Why are you changing the subject? The subject was whether it was possible to dismiss all gods as imaginary without having to defend that position. I pointed out that most of the world's people believe in a god or multiple gods, so it is NOT possible to dismiss all gods as imaginary without having to defend that position. So, would you like to defend the position, or would you like to go on being completely irrelevant?
     
  15. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Desperate attempt at DEFLECTION because you obviously cannot defend your own source that you were previously relying upon to support your position duly noted FTR.
     
  16. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Banned

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    Talking about yourself again? You present no facts, just statements that you wish were facts. You offer nothing original in your statement, which figures. If one dares to disagree with you or point out where you are wrong you attack.

    You analogy of a five year old fits you perfectly, except in your case perhaps a two year old.
     
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  17. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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  18. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Active Member

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    The belief in something that is outside the physical world and impossible to prove involves a leap of faith, an irrational act, but one many are happy with.
     
  19. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Banned

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    Hardly, as there are also many who are just as happy believe just the opposite and are at least equally as happy with that.

    We all do not have to believe as you do or, for that matter, believe at all.
     
  20. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Active Member

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    As an atheist I was referencing "it is NOT possible to dismiss all gods as imaginary without having to defend that position".
     
  21. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Banned

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    Defend against what, imagination?
     
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  22. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Boo hoo.
     
  23. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Many have come to faith in Christ BECAUSE of their rationality. You want to believe nothing times nobody equals everything, go ahead.
     
  24. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Active Member

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    So how is a "leap of faith" a rational act?
     
  25. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Banned

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    A very inciteful and through statement of your logical and complete argument. Nothing burger.
     

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