Atheist prayers can be barred by House chaplain, appeals court says

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Bluesguy, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    " “The House’s requirement that prayers must be religious nonetheless precludes Barker from doing the very thing he asks us to order Conroy to allow him to do: deliver a secular prayer.”"
    IE since atheist prayers are not religious in nature atheism is not a religion. And I was noting the dichotomy of the two.

    Religion: : the service and worship of God or the supernatural
    Faith: : belief and trust in and loyalty to God
     
  2. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    But thats not the problem, the problem is that most [neo]atheists are not capable of reading past the first line when throwing definitions around.

    Definition of religion
    1a : the state of a religious a nun in her 20th year of religion
    b(1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural
    (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
    2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
    3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
    4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

    and now we will hear from those who would advertise there is no structure what so ever to their beliefs, (hence no system, therefore not religion) they just pretend that their beliefs are nothing more than a random junkyard, (maybe they are?), a dichotomy nonetheless (not too impressive).

    Atheists faithfully hold there is no G/god, despite they have no proof what so ever their 'belief' is true.
     
  3. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Well-Known Member

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    And those like you faithfully hold that there is a god despite having no proof what so ever that their "belief" is true.

    What you continue to spew is mere swamp gas to make yourself feel better, no where near the truth, as usual.
     
  4. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Whenever you use a word, you have to pick one definition and stick with it, or leave yourself open to the fallacy of equivocation. It would seem, in this particular case, your b(1) (or something similar) was selected, and by a theist.
    As much as we might, that's not the meat of this discussion. The decision the OP refers to seems to make no reference to whether atheism is a lack of beliefs or a specific belief, the only relevant decision seems to be that atheism is not considered a religion.
     
  5. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    News to me? you may wish to consult the facts before yer fingers do the talkin
     
  6. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    what part of "atheism is to be counted as a religion" dont you understand? Its not only considered to be a religion, its 'counted' as a religion.
    a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
    typical atheist
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  7. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    As I recall, the Supreme Court ruled that the House chaplain does not constitute an establishment of religion subject to the strictures of the 1st Amendment. That being the case, the House can set the standards by which the House chaplain operates. And if the House wishes to exclude "atheist prayers", whatever the f*** they are, it can. I think the lower court made the right call here.
     
  8. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Atheism is "counted as a religion" by the Law of the Land in order to UPHOLD the Freedom FROM Religion liberty in the 1st Amendment.

    Atheism IS Freedom FROM Religion.

    Sad that this fundamental concept is so difficult for you to comprehend.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  9. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    The main thing I don't understand is why you leave out "for the purposes of the first amendment". It's a pretty key line which specifies that their decision is confined to the application of that law.
    I don't know what significance you put on that distinction.
    You have to stick to the active definition. In so far that you're referring to previous arguments, you have to stick to those definitions, or you cause equivocation. When you invoke arguments from atheists, you already committed to a definition, and it's not the one you're claiming now.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  10. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Well-Known Member

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    Who said anything about "news to you"? It is constantly what you knowingly do and you continue to do so in spite of the fact that virtually everyone has called you out on it.

    BTW, if YOU consulted facts prior to your spewing, you would never post again. That, of course, is a impossible dream.
     
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  11. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Well-Known Member

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    He always makes up definitions for words or words themselves to support his flawed shrieking on the subject. He finds one phrase and bends it to meet his warped idea of what it means. Truth has no meaning to him, just as there is no logic in his world.
     
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  12. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    So it isn't really prayer, but you want it recognized as prayer anyway, just like homosexuals want their pseudo-marriages deemed equal to real marriages. Got that about right, haven't I?
    Sure, what could be more edifying than an exhortation to recognize the unalienable rights granted by the Omnipotent Idiocy that created us, right?
     
  13. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Why do so many of the religious have sexuality issues? It is a real marriage, just sad that your problems mean you wish to dictate to others who they should marry. Sexually repressed religious people spewing their bile on the internet, is such as sad thing to see.
     
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  14. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Actually I don't believe it should occur at all but if Congress is going to allow such moments of reflection then atheist, agnostics, wiccans, etc etc should be treated equally.

    I don't subscribe to the belief that an omnipotent anything created us.
     
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  15. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    He represents a religious establishment which is being given respect. And there is still equal protection under the law and equal access. As there can be no religious test to hold an office how can there be a religious test here?
     
  16. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how many of those theists who hate gays included the following bible verses in their own marriage vows?

    Because if they did include them they exchanged the same vows that Ruth made to the love of her life, Naomi!
     
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  17. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Because he's a chaplain. That's like suggesting a felon should be able to be the Crime Czar. We've lost all common sense in this country when we can't understand why girls shouldn't be in the Boy Scouts, men shouldn't be in the women's bathroom, and atheists can't be chaplains. It's just dumb. Personally, I would put up a creche in the town square and tell the Satanists to go **** off. But that's just me.
     
  18. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    No it isn't. Freedom from religion is not guaranteed by the 1st Amendment, and in fact, you are not free from religion. If a Jehovah's Witness comes knocking on your door, there's nothing you can do about it. We have freedom of religion in this country, not freedom from religion. And atheism has nothing to do with it. Atheism is a disbelief in God or gods, it doesn't have anything to do with religion.
     
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  19. Arjay51

    Arjay51 Well-Known Member

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    .And yet, so many even in this thread, keep insisting that atheism IS a religion and hate it for this untruth. Really says something basic about religion, that it can't stand to be ignored.
     
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  20. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Satanism is a RELIGION which means their Guest preacher WOULD fall within the House rules.
     
  21. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    There is NO freedom OF religion WITHOUT freedom FROM religion.

    In essence YOU are FORCING EVERYONE to BELONG to a religion!
     
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  22. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    So what? I bet they allow Rabbi's and Clerics too. Just give equal time to all views or none at all.
     
  23. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    I'm atheist and don't belong to a religion. So how am I forcing anyone to belong to a religion by defending freedom OF religion? Your formulation is incorrect because there can only be one or the other... either you have the right to exclude homosexuals from your list of clients because you are a Christian or you don't. The first is freedom OF religion, the second is freedom FROM religion. The first is protected by the 1st Amendment to the Constitution, the second isn't.
     
  24. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe in equality. I believe in freedom. "Equal time to all views" is not freedom, it's tyranny. Just as we do not have to give equal consideration to conspiracy theory nonsense, we do not have to give equal consideration to every nutcase with a religion.
     
  25. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    But Atheism isn't a religion it just wields the same protections under the 1st Amendment for expression of this philosophy its not a religion therefore under the rules their can be no Atheist prayers. It likely might be overturned though.
     
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