Attack Against Christendom

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Kyklos, Sep 14, 2018.

  1. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Correct, Nicea simply codified what the church had always believed in the face of then current heresies.
     
  2. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Obviously.....Have A Nice Day:)
     
  3. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you imagine Jesus accepted every arcane rule set down in the Old Testament you haven’t read the New Testament. Either that or you’re reading from a peculiar translation.
     
  4. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And what do you imagine Christ being crucified was? A pleasant little episode? A party trick? And that’s before we start unpicking the real source of original sin, the granting of free will to our species by a being supposedly blessed with omniscience.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  5. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    I'm referring to the fact Jesus believed in a literal Adam and a literal Noah.
     
  6. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    It did take an unimaginable amount of love for God to offer His son on our behalf. As far as misusing our free will, it could be that compared to eternity, the few thousand year interlude of fallen man will be seen as a blip.
     
  7. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Forms of ‘theologic’ such as yours are so vastly delusional there’s no point in attempting to discuss obscenities such as ‘the unimaginable amount of love’ you’ve conviced yourself was working miracles on the cross.
     
  8. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    On the other hand you may find this aids in your evangelical struggle to convert us all to superstition.
    https://vhrxfgjig06.storage.googleapis.com/MDk0MDkzMTM5Nw==06.pdf
     
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I haven't seen that, but I don't know why it matters. The messages of Genesis aren't any less important or meaningful as allegories. In fact, they can be more meaningful - and far harder to reject, for that matter. The messages of the Noah story do not depend on us finding or building an ark or finding answers for the many highly improbable aspects of a literal Noah story. We should focus on the meaning, not on where the water came from and went to. That is, we should focus on the religion of the Bible and not make it subject to what is found by science.

    Genesis states that we may meaningfully explore the universe - which is the primary basis for scientific method (science) as practiced today.

    Like so many of our early scientists who were highly religious, we should separate our science and our religion. They use different methods and make different assumptions in order to answer very different questions.
     
  10. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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  11. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus didn't take them as allegories, but as historical fact. How can a Christian (literally, little Christ) assume any less? WillReadmore, your God is too small.
     
  12. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    We agree, any conversation with you is pointless.
     
  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I see Jesus referencing the allegories of Genesis.

    I don't see evidence that Jesus was depending on them to be physics lessons.

    Whether the whole world was flooded is irrelevant to the central messages. The garden of Eden allegory doesn't depend on their being a literal "tree of knowledge of good and evil" and a literal "tree of life" - which have since died.

    One has to take these allegories as meaning a whole lot more than a physical history. If you keep focusing on the physics these stories become no more than total heaps of abject magic, overshadowing the reasons anyone actually bothered to relate them.
     
  14. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but that's just post modern babble. I let the Bible judge me, I don't judge it.
     
  15. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Too often these phrases such a ‘true Christians’ are thrown around either without definition or worse, with claims those who swallow scripture, New and Old Testament whole are in touch with ‘The Word of God’.
    I do wish we had a clear, unabiguous portrait of Christ and what he taught but we don’t. The best anyone can do in good faith ( now there’s an ambiguous term in this context) is to catch up with the last several centuries of biblical studies. Doing so won’t provide anyone with 100% infalible knowledge of Christ’s ministry but it sure does peel away a lot of the myth, misinterpretation and downright lies various branches so called Christianity have dumped on scripture since the Roman Empire pretended St Peter was in Rome and was the rock upon which that branch of the religion was built. We know now Peter was never in Rome.
     
  16. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You let the Bible judge you? A dangerous chopping block to rest your head on considering the vengeful, unpredicable and violent God portrayed in the Old Testament for one thing.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  17. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    I sleep very well at night. Its a good feeling to be reconciled with God and forgiven for one's sins.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  18. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Not really.

    Tertullian, in The Demurrer Against the Heretics (A.D. 200), noted of Rome, “How happy is that church . . . where Peter endured a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned in a death like John’s [referring to John the Baptist, both he and Paul being beheaded].”

    In the same book, Tertullian wrote that “this is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrnaeans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John; like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter.” Clement wrote his Letter to the Corinthians perhaps before the year 70, just a few years after Peter and Paul were killed; in it he made reference to Peter ending his life where Paul ended his.

    In his Letter to the Romans (A.D. 110), Ignatius of Antioch remarked that he could not command the Roman Christians the way Peter and Paul once did, such a comment making sense only if Peter had been a leader, if not the leader, of the church in Rome.

    Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (A.D. 190), said that Matthew wrote his Gospel “while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church.”

    Clement of Alexandria wrote at the turn of the third century. A fragment of his work Sketches is preserved in Eusebius of Caesarea’s Ecclesiastical History, the first history of the Church. Clement wrote, “When Peter preached the word publicly at Rome, and declared the gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had been for a long time his follower and who remembered his sayings, should write down what had been proclaimed.”

    Lactantius, in a treatise called The Death of the Persecutors, written around 318, noted that “When Nero was already reigning [Nero reigned from 54–68], Peter came to Rome, where, in virtue of the performance of certain miracles which he worked by that power of God which had been given to him, he converted many to righteousness and established a firm and steadfast temple to God.”
     
  19. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    what is a true Christian per the bible... know any?

    And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. -- Mark 16:17-18

    Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. -- Luke 10:19
     
  20. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Context is everything, Jesus was speaking to the Apostles. See a few verses before.

    14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

    15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

    The Apostles DID cast out demons, speak in tongues at the Day of Pentecost, and heal the sick. Paul, also considered an Apostle, was bitten by a snake, which did not hurt him.
     
  21. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So, you’ve accepted on faith the church of Rome never indulged in the re-writing of history?
     
  22. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    If you're proposing that wacky conspiracy theory, it's up to you to prove it. Maybe a letter from a pope saying, "Today we'll dummy up a Clement letter", something like that.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    It's not a matter of judging. It's a matter of attempting to figure out the real meaning behind the story.

    The allegory of the garden of eden isn't about apples and trees - it's about the fundamental flaw in humans, man's relationship to god, etc.

    The story of Noah is even more complex, as it has God deciding his creation was too evil to exist, and then changing his mind. He changed his mind!! Surely that is WAY more important than figuring out where all that water came from or went to or how high the flood was or what was actually inside the ark - something even Ken Hamm fails to do in a believable way.

    The attempt to defend each of the elements in these stories as being consistent with the physical record (in fact, with physics) is way off message. And, THOSE attempts can be shown to be false. It doesn't serve any good end to hold a position that includes elements that can be shown to be false.

    Focusing on the actual meaning is FAR more important to Christianity.
     
  24. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  25. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    and yet now Christian Priests are molesting children and the others cover it up? how far they have fallen sense then

    "preach the gospel to every creature."

    we need dog and cat Churches too? and every creature?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019

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