Attention all anarcho-capitalists, Voluntarists

Discussion in 'Opinion POLLS' started by Maximatic, Mar 28, 2013.

?

Please choose all of the options that you can honestly affirm.

  1. Yes to question 1

    2 vote(s)
    100.0%
  2. Yes to question 2

    2 vote(s)
    100.0%
  3. Yes to question 3

    2 vote(s)
    100.0%
  4. Yes to question 4

    2 vote(s)
    100.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    Do you really want to build a stateless society?

    1. Are you willing to purchase a commitment to purchase a lot, or lots in a stateless territory where, in the event that the territory is acquired, you will purchase the lot or lots which you will have committed to purchase?

    2. Are you willing to build on your lot or lots once you become its owner?

    3. Will you be ready to begin construction on your lot or lots at any moment once you become the owner of the lot, or lots you will have committed to purchase?

    4. Will you be ready to live on, rent or conduct business on the property you will have purchased at any moment from the time you become its owner?
     
  2. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    Stateless territory? And where might that be? Antarctica? A giant platform in the middle of the ocean? I suppose enough people could get together and purchase a small piece of land from a government somewhere.

    But is it fair for you to not pay taxes when the countries buffering your new state are effectively subsidizing your protection from outside invassion?
     
    Maximatic and (deleted member) like this.
  3. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    Are you a voluntarist?
     
  4. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    Anarcho-capitalists, Voluntarists, this is not a joke. Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is or not? Or did you all leave this forum?
     
  5. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    So, should I take this lack of response as a tacit affirmation that all anarcho-capitalists who have seen this thread lack the courage of their convictions? I'd hate to, but honestly, it wouldn't surprise me.
     
  6. Liberalis

    Liberalis Well-Known Member

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    No, I think you should take it to mean your questions are pretty incomprehensible. I have read through them 5 times now and I have no idea what you are asking, particularly the first question.
     
  7. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    It means what it says. You would have to put down earnest money on the lot(s) you want to purchase. That money would be at risk, in that, in the event that the overarching deal on which your purchase would depend doesn't go through or you decide not to buy, you lose the earnest money.
     
  8. johnmayo

    johnmayo New Member Past Donor

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    Europe doesn't seem to mind getting free protection from America, why should this new state worry?

    Voluntarism wouldn't work because the first contract would need enforcement, and a neutral arbiter otherwise if the deal went wrong only violence could solve the issue.
     
  9. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    If that whole statement were true, then governments could never form. But governments form.
     
  10. Liberalis

    Liberalis Well-Known Member

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    What overarching deal? Purchased by who? Speak in specifics. Are you asking if I would buy a piece of land if the land is in a stateless society?
     
  11. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    If, IF, (*)(*)(*)(*)ing IF, *******mit, this thread is not a (*)(*)(*)(*)ing contract. If you could go in with a bunch of voluntarists to buy a stateless society, would you (*)(*)(*)(*)ing do it? Yes, that's what I'm asking you!
     
  12. Liberalis

    Liberalis Well-Known Member

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    Well yes, of course, assuming there are enough other people to form a large area and population. What exactly is the point you are trying to make?
     
  13. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Very few places on Earth are without the state, I think it's better to work constructively within it than pretend we are sovereign. Our ideas have appeal to everyday people - if we can make the state irrelevant then it will disappear, this has always been the case.
     
  14. JonathanBlu

    JonathanBlu Member Past Donor

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    Maximatic, your idea, while intriguing to some it is not at all appealing to the kind of people who frequent this site. First of all, I imagine most of them have little or no expendable capital to risk in such an opportunity. Second, I doubt any of them have the intellectual capacity to even know, much less care what you're talking about. Liberalis couldn't grasp it, and he's from the great state of California. Third, for those who do understand, not many will think it is a good idea. I imagine them wondering where this stateless land is, what resources are available, and who will protect them. My guess is you're talking about Somalia, or perhaps a post catastrophe America; both option present their own unique issues. But as long as we're here we might as well play pretend. There is some stateless land out west and we have the opportunity to purchase a stake in it. Note, we're not actually purchasing land, we're purchasing an agreement that when the land becomes available we will then purchase the land outright. After that we will travel, develop, and live on the land, working and trading with those around us who also purchased land. There are times when I would like to believe in the entrepreneurial and adventurous spirit of Americans (this is assuming of course you are speaking of Americans), but most of the time it seems many have become complacent and comfortable, happy to stay at home thinking that life is good. I still hold the belief that there are people in the world who struggle under various tyrannical regimes or otherwise barely livable conditions that would take the risk to start anew and try to make things better than they were at home, history alone has taught us this. But here in America we are too worried about who is marrying who, who is taking the job that we didn't want in the first place, what drugs people are doing and overall everything that we think is wrong with everyone else instead of realizing that our political parties are slowly but surely crippling this country and it's people, all under the guise that it is for our own good.

    Unless of course you are talking about space, in which case I am all in.
     
  15. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a point. These are questions that I want to know how people who call themselves Voluntarists and Anarcho-Capitalists would answer.
     
  16. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    Okay, so you believe that government is necessary, inevitable, what?

    Also, why won't you just answer the questions in the context in which they are written?
     
  17. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    You have no idea what my idea is, or if I even have an idea, so that's where I stopped reading. The OP is nothing but questions. If you can't answer the questions, stop trolling my thread.
     
  18. JonathanBlu

    JonathanBlu Member Past Donor

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    The way I interpreted your idea is that it was to gauge who among us would be open to the idea of investing in the idea of a new country, one free of existing societal and legislative burdens. If I am off then perhaps you are being too subtle. Note I said idea of a country because you implied yourself that it is not certain and that one would not actually be investing in property, merely a commitment to invest in property. I actually thought for a moment when I put together my post that it might be worthwhile discussing this with you, but my best guess from your intellectually charged response is that you are probably just an angst-filled teenager with no job, no money, no concept of how the real world works, filled with ideals about some bs you read on the internet about who is trying to be subtle and edgy in a way that no one seems to understand, least of all yourself.

    But then again, the fact that you thought my post was trolling makes me wonder if you aren't so computer illiterate that you might be an angst-filled 40-something with no job, no money, no concept of how the real world works, filled with ideals about some bs you read on the internet about who is trying to be subtle and edgy in a way that no one seems to understand, least of all yourself. I'll be around if you want to educate me otherwise, I try to keep an open mind to new and interesting ideas.
     
  19. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    This prompted me to read your other post. I'm sorry, I should have read it before responding. You hadn't taken it anywhere near where I assumed you had, and you're right.

    The plan is to purchase a small portion of land (less than 50 square miles) in an area outside of the US, not in Africa, Europe, Australia, Canada. I won't go on about where it will not be. It will be near a populated area, on good, mostly flat land with water. Building on it will be easy. It will be within about a dozen miles of established road. It will be populated, at first, by those who buy the lots, but we should assume that many locals from the surrounding areas will move in once it has been sufficiently developed. What I've noticed is that internet anarchists are not very productive, don't have much of their own, and aren't very good at living their favorite philosophy. The people who seem the most receptive to this are conservatives who can be persuaded by anarcho-capitalist ideas.
     
  20. JonathanBlu

    JonathanBlu Member Past Donor

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    Do you want the cold hard honest truth? There will be hurdles. Many of them.
    -Where will you get the land? You say you want a plot that is near a populated area. This means that it is most likely already under their jurisdiction and it is unlikely they would be willing to part with it. Because you are not just talking about buying 50 acres in Mexico and building a small community. You want to be completely independent of them. This means theirs or anyone's laws will not apply. The implications of this are extensive beyond belief.
    -How will get the land? You can either claim unclaimed land (last time I checked there is not much of that around), you could purchase it (see above), or you could forcibly take it (I'm sure you can imagine the problems with this)
    -What will you do when you get the land? 50 sq. miles is not a gigantic country; natural resources and the means of processing them into usable goods, construction or otherwise, will probably be scarce or unavailable. This means almost all of your construction materials will have to brought in from the neighboring population. Unless you don't mind living in huts. Which brings me to the next point.
    -What level of basic services and utilities will be adequate for your needs? Let's assume there is a fresh water sources, trees and farmland available. With enough know how, you can start a small farming village. Will your small group be lucky enough to have carpenters, plumbers, farmers, medicine men and other trained professions in the mix, or will these have to be brought in from the neighboring populations?
    -For any services brought in, how will they be paid for? I'm you won't have currency of your own. If you do, there will probably not be anyone who will take it. This means having enough of the neighboring populations currency to provide for yourself until your community is self sustaining (I have no idea how long that could take).
    -Probably most importantly, what is to stop a group of drug cartels/bandits/neighboring gov'ts from coming in and just murdering you all in your sleep.
    I'm not trying to be pessimistic, I just believe these are very real problems that would have to be dealt with. And saying, "Well hypothetically, let's assume we can circumvent these issues," doesn't get us anywhere. I can use my imagination and dream up all sorts of hypothetical situations and often do, but that doesn't mean they will ever come to fruition in the real world and I'm no further along than I was before I started picturing a brave new world.

    In the current global environment, I do not see this playing out. However, I don't believe it is hopeless. Somalia seems like fair game. Good farmland, no gov't; just bring plenty of guns and ammo and you can start there. Or you could wait for things to go to crap here in America and work off of that. I still believe space is the next frontier. If we can just get a good space program in gear that will put humans in some sort of stasis and ship them off to other planets then you could theoretically start up any sort of system of gov't you thought would work.
     
  21. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Huh? I just saw a thread and replied to it lol, I didn't read anything following. The fact that I consider it not worth my time as a university student to go off, spend millions I don't have on land and somehow have it absent of state control doesn't conflict with an-cap. People are self-interested by nature, the fact that I'd rather be here than off in some ancap utopia is no more relevant than your lack of desire to go off to whatever country that best represents your political views.

    If you're asking if I think my lack of willingness to move to this ancap utopia means I inherently consent to live under the oppressive state that I do - then that's ridiculous. The state "owns" the land illegitimately and has no right to rule over it, whenever two individuals trade a house for example that becomes the property of the buyer, you should be able to set whatever conditions you want on your property since you have exclusive use of it. If you want to go back far enough we'll go into homesteading, but I judge that's not necessary quite yet.

    If I haven't got to the heart of your question (I'd vote no for all of the poll questions by the way but it won't let me vote no for all) please explain what exactly you want me to answer.
     
  22. Maximatic

    Maximatic Well-Known Member

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    So, go find something you know about, and talk about it.
     
  23. Mr. Swedish Guy

    Mr. Swedish Guy New Member

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    You know, if I was the leader of ANY country i'd invade you petty anarchists in your stateless land just because I could, to show you folly. Even zimbabwe would suffice for that task!
     
  24. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I read this "You know, if I had my wish, which is to rule over other people because I know better than they how to run their lives, I would expend the lives of the people over whom I rule just so that I could satisfy my whim to prove that my rule is superior to the self-rule of anyone else."
     
  25. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I see where you are going with this. For my part, the answer would be no. If you had asked me 10 years ago, I might have said yes. However, circumstances are now such that I would find it barely tolerable to leave California, let alone everything else that I do. I have a thriving business and another one being launched with a very successful partner. My wife's family is here and she won't go far from them unless it was absolutely necessary.

    If you were to do something like you suggest, I think you'd find people to join you. I know several who aren't so attached as I .
     

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