Aussie has the answer for US gun control

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by wombat, Jan 29, 2019.

  1. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Aw.. look at that - a fallacious appeal to emotion.
    Noting like standing on a pile of dead kins and soaking yourself in their blood to push an agenda.
    By "mass murders" I presume you mean "mass shootings".
    They make up ~0.125% of all murders in the US, per year, on average, since 1982.
    My "concern"? That enough people will be swayed by the anti-gun left's incessant and fallacious appeals to emotion, ignorance and/or dishonesty that the rights of the law abiding will suffer further ineffective, unnecessary restrictions on their right to arms.
    Yes. Make it easier for the victims-to-be to shoot back.
     
  2. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    I see you aren't interested in the facts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
  3. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Why are you not comparing like for like? You removed gun murder rates from total murder rates for the US but did not do the same for Australia. You do know that no one has stated that no one is murdered by gun use in Australia? Some might think that you did this deliberately in order to convince others that Australia's non-gun murder rate is 1.7/100k.

    If you really want to do a fair test in gun control laws you would really need to produce the figures showing trends over the years in murder rate by firearm, murder rate by knife and murder rate by neither gun or knife for both countries
     
  4. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Did it?

    Male australians should demand more women commit suicide for equality reasons, apparently.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


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  5. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah I think you're in the wrong class.
     
  6. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    You would.
     
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  7. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    A story is told by the US non-gun murder rate roughly equaling Australia's total murder rate, and the US knife/bladed weapon murder rate coming in at more than a third of Australia's total murder rate.
    That story: Our gun control laws aren't the problem; their gun control laws aren't the solution.
     
  8. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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  9. saveliberty

    saveliberty Well-Known Member

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    Gun control? You mean squeeze the trigger slowly and measured breaths? I thought everyone knew that.
     
  10. Richard The Last

    Richard The Last Well-Known Member

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    Yep, within reason to me. There are so many more deaths from so many other things in the US. If it was really all about how many lives can be saved then lets start in areas other then firearms deaths. A child is more likely to be abducted on their way to or from school than they are to be shot while in school. If we want to save more children why not concentrate on stopping child abduction. Get Bloomberg to spend where it will save more lives for the money. More children die from abuse and neglect in the US then die from firearms.

    If we want to save more lives lets concentrate on illegal drugs and reducing gang violence. Most gun deaths are gang/drug related. There are many more deaths from illegal drugs than from guns. You decide; where do we concentrate our efforts?

    Link of interest on "Putting Gun Death Statistics in Perspective"
    http://jpfo.org/articles-assd03/gun-stats-perspective.htm
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
  11. wombat

    wombat Well-Known Member

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    The answer to your reply is "all of the above". As a society (any civilized) we have to approach all issues and fix all issues. You don't sit on your hands hoping for the best and school after school the children fall and do nothing about it. That is irresponsible and you should be actively canvassing congress embers to change laws. You also cant justify doing nothing about it by pointing the finger at other statistics and saying "those few dozen kiddies down the road that got slaughtered - well that's fine, it hasn't reached the 500 dead kids this calendar year "all within expectations". That makes you and your friends UNcivilised.

    And the topic of using emotion to justify my (and many of your countrymen) arguments being condemned- what would you think was the better form of objectivity? Do you think no emotion should be used? But we are talking dead people here and kids, if you don't get emotional when you turn on the TV and see the aftermath of slaughtered children that committed the error of turning up to be educated then there is the problem right there.....me,me,me….all one cares about is me- naught else matters.!!! Damn it!!

    "then lets start in areas other then firearms deaths" So let's use a motor vehicle as one example. We develop cars and its always evolving. We don't develop a car by doubling engine output without generally giving it larger brakes, airbags and crumble zones. Gone are the days of just adding more horsepower. And so the gun ownership issue is way out of control and it isnt being addressed effectively. You don't see any problem at all and if it is a problem it is because more good guys should have a gun as well. You don't see that argument as being on the insane list. You are so intrenched in your psyche that no amount of common sense makes sense. No overseas examples stop you from a counter claim. No outrage of emotion "but what about the children" is taken as genuine sorrow for the mass slaughter- it's all justified by you - "A child is more likely to be abducted on their way to or from school than they are to be shot while in school. If we want to save more children why not concentrate on stopping child abduction" you say. How absurd is it to justify an acceptable level of murders...? oops -mass shootings.

    We have a TV advertisement here in Oz. A man is asked how many road deaths is acceptable annually. He answers "oh..say...70" Then 70 members of his family walk over a rise...he is asked "how many is acceptable now". ZERO! Yes, there will aways be road deaths but none is acceptable. Get it?

    The difference in your mentality is- well if members of my family are slaughtered I need a bigger gun to defend them....oh, but they are DEAD! Too late.
     
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  12. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, it proves a number of things.

    It proves that suicide by firearm started going down in the 80's.

    It proves that after the firearm ban, suicide levels could be as high as they were pre-ban.

    It proves that people in Australia kept killing themselves, they just chose something other than a gun.

    Your gun ban had nothing to do with stopping suicide in Australia, clearly.
     
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  13. Richard The Last

    Richard The Last Well-Known Member

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    You make some very valid points and I agree with some of them. We should be addressing all issues and trying to fix them. The problem is our elected representatives are not approaching the issues equitably. Should not each problem be given consideration based on its percentage of the whole? While we could and should be addressing murders by firearm and suicides by firearm there are many other unnecessary deaths occurring in greater numbers. Should those deaths not be getting attention based on their percent of the whole? Obesity and its health complications is killing many many Americans yet gets very little attention from Congress. If our elected officials really cared about unnecessary deaths then the first order of business in the new Democratic House would not have been gun control but Obesity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
  14. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    "Transportation to North America. From the early 1600s until the American Revolution of 1776, the British colonies in North America received transported British criminals. In the 17th century transportation was carried out at the expense of the convicts or the shipowners.
    Penal transportation - Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Penal_tr..."
     
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  15. wombat

    wombat Well-Known Member

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    On the right track I think. But percentage of the whole isnt a good guide as each problem has its own unique causes. But yes each problem, obesity, suicide by any means eg mental health are all important, damn right. Tackling suicide needs a multi pronged approach (this is a field I'm actively involved with) eg bullying, parental deficiencies, environment, disorders, male low self esteem (males here in Oz suicide 5:1 to females) and lack of male to male open interactions to name some.
    Gun control involves many facets also but much different eg safety, perceptions of safety, the nature of ones neighbourhood, protection of rights and so on. It becomes more complex in that many gun control advocates arent promoting abolishing all guns as such. So many differences to the obesity crisis.
    I take your point about crisis other than gun control.
     
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  16. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    The best way to go about stopping mass and school shootings is for the media to stop reporting on such. They should report that something took place, cover the names of the victims, but absolutely no details pertaining to the perpetrator. Do not mention their name, do not release their photo, do not cover any details pertaining to their life. Do not glorify the one who murdered so many by giving them fame and recognition, as it simply inspires others to do the same thing and motivates them to try and top the previous mass shooter so they can be the famous one. It is a competition of killing, and the united states news media is encouraging it for its own ratings.
     
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  17. wombat

    wombat Well-Known Member

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    Now we're talking!
    Great idea. Whether it will ever succeed is another topic.
    They trialed an idea here where graffiti drawn overnight on trains and bridges was washed off or painted over early as possible the next morning. The offenders slowly gave up their efforts.

    Taking away the twisted fame, removing a mass shooters final legacy is certainly a radical concept that would have some effect.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  18. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Facts from the US for you to consider:
    -1982-2018, there were 16 mass school shootings of all kinds, resulting in 142 deaths for an average of 3.83 deaths per year.
    -73 of these deaths, 51.41%, involved the use of an ‘assault weapon’, for an average of 1.97 deaths per year.
    https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/

    What sort of "common sense" solution does this necessitate, and how will said solution solve the problem?
     
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  19. wombat

    wombat Well-Known Member

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    Why is it that you think I have all the answers?
    Why is it that you can rely on statistics and not think the problem is indeed a problem?

    My approach to this is to raise the question that more control of firearm access is required. As Clint says "a mans gotta know his limitations".

    I'd sssume a US citizen cannot legally own a tank with shells? Would that owner holler "its my right to bare arms" So, in respect to other firearms capable of mass killings in short time frames, taking away access by any means would be a start.

    Or would you go buy a bigger tank?

    Edit: what a laugh...this show me how insane your country is. I just googled "can I buy a tank in USA"? Got this-


    According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, yes, totally legal. And, technically. Right now, ArmsList will put you in touch with a dealer selling a “Fully Operational Main Battle Tank with 120mm Live Cannon.” ... The main gun is registered as a Destructive Device with the ATF and comes with 10 projectiles.

    Quote...Apollo "Houston. ..we have a problem..."

    So- wanna buy an A10?
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
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  20. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    You certainly seem to think so.
    Hundreds of millions of guns in the US, and fewer than 4 people per year are killed in a school-related shooting. I don't see the problem.
    Perhaps you can explain how you do, and soundly support that explanation.
    Remembering for the moment that the law abiding have a right to keep and bear all bearable arms, and thus their access to same cannot be denied, what do you have in mind?
    You assume incorrectly.
    Australians have access to these weapons - why don't you have school shootings?
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  21. Richard The Last

    Richard The Last Well-Known Member

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    Without statistics how do you identify a problem? If only one person in the US was shot this year I think most would agree it really wasn't a huge problem, except of course for the guy who got shot. If two are shot it becomes statistics. A highway department uses car counts to determine traffic control needs on roads. How else do we determine possible need for control if not with statistics? As with deaths on highways, deaths from firearms have acceptable levels.

    I feel as an honest citizen it really is my right to own a tank. Others obviously disagree.

    As for taking away firearms capable of mass killings in a short time frame, that would include all firearms with the possible exception of single shot weapons.
     
  22. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to be laughing well into the evening about that one.
    Thanks!

    Edit: For fun
    https://www.sandiegouniontribune.co...rampage-story-symbol-2015may16-htmlstory.html

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
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  23. Xenamnes

    Xenamnes Banned

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    Several recent mass shootings in the united states have been carried out by those who legally acquired their firearms in states where significant firearm-related restrictions exist, such as permits to acquire and permits to own firearms, registration, magazine capacity limitations, psychological evaluations, and a myriad of other requirements. None of which did any good at preventing the mass shootings from occurring.

    So long as firearms remains physically available, regardless of how restricted they may be, they will ultimately be acquired and used by those intent on committing harm to others. The only available, logical course of action, is to recognize futility upon sight, and move on.
     
  24. wombat

    wombat Well-Known Member

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    Futility?. Saving one life is not futile.
    This is where we differ and it's at the core of our differences.
     
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  25. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Hm.
    You know that for every gun used to commit murder in the US, 7.5 are used in self defense - right?
     

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