Australia to save White South African's lifes

Discussion in 'Australia, NZ, Pacific' started by Glücksritter, Mar 20, 2018.

  1. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    11,951
    Likes Received:
    7,714
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    you are discriminating against those Australians who do not need lessons on how to live clean, which is a very large group outside of Winthrop. It's similar to someone else from an ethnic group committing a crime, then assuming all people from that group commit crimes. Why is it ok to paint an entire population of white people with a broad sweeping brush, but if same is done to black or other ethnic groups it's.... RACIST! It's discrimination no matter who it is.
     
    Sallyally likes this.
  2. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    15,834
    Likes Received:
    28,238
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    "History has also shown us that Islam does not tolerate any other faith, and when it is the dominant faith it crushes every other faith mercilessly. Comply or die. Make no mistake this will never change, this is not a faith built on tolerance."

    I don't agree with this. In Turkey, Egypt, Indonesia, and Malaysia Christians are tolerated.

    There are different sorts of Muslim. I worked with a Bosnian Muslim nurse who had several dogs and was not averse to managing male patients.
    I had many Turkish patients who were very nice people and very hospitable to the infidel nurse in their homes.
    No doubt there are nasty weirdos, as there are in every religion , but you can't generalise about them and demonise every Muslim.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  3. Robert

    Robert Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2014
    Messages:
    68,085
    Likes Received:
    17,134
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I try to get more than merely America's news so I knew of this problem for the farmers. They need help now. Also Cape Town is almost out of water. What will be there for blacks?
     
  4. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My wife's uncle worked in the Lebanon after WW2. One of the people that he worked with was an accountant who came from very poor circumstances. When he and his bride were newly married they lived in a one room cottage since it was all that they could afford at the time. Late one very cold night there was a knock on the door and it was a couple with their infant son making the pilgrimage to Mecca. They gave them food and made a place for them to sleep. The next morning both the man and his wife were sick and a couple of days later they died. The accountant and his wife then raised the infant to manhood and gave him his inheritance from his parents when he came of age. They took nothing for themselves since they were devout Muslims.

    I have lived with and worked with Muslims and found them to be honest and trustworthy. They are no different to the Hindus, Sikhs and Shintoists that I have encountered in my life.
     
    Mr_Truth, LeftRightLeft and Sallyally like this.
  5. m2catter

    m2catter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    3,084
    Likes Received:
    654
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I can learn from other people, regardless where they come from, and I am happy doing so. And if it happens and these people lift the standards, then where is the problem? The problem is not me, sw, I think. I am out of here...
    Reg.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  6. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Once again I found myself researching a claim that just did not sound right to me. Not picking on SW but the facts seemed so out of kilter that I needed to check them for my own satisfaction.

    I agree that Apartheid was a crime against humanity but the math doesn't ring true. From what I have gathered there were about 5 million whites and 30 million blacks during that era. If what is alleged is accurate then the "police state" was maintaining "law & order" in every part of the nation for a period of 40 years. That averages to only 2,500 murders per year which equates to a murder rate of 7 per 100,000 people. Compare that to the current rate of 50 per 100,000 and there would have to be a reason for that seven fold increase.

    https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2015-10-02-south-africas-mysterious-murder-rate/

    In essence what the above analysis of the data is describing is that there has ALWAYS been a high murder rate in South Africa even under the odious Apartheid era. Just because the murders weren't recorded does not mean that they were not happening.

    Hope that clears up some of the misinformation.
     
    Mr_Truth and truthvigilante like this.
  7. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes Received:
    189
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Sorry, I don’t think you grasped the point of my post. I probably didn’t make it clear enough.

    I agree with you as I also work with those of Islamic faith. They are as couteous and respectful as any other person. That is why I made the point of “ singular contact”, and how if it only came down to singular contact the differences may be easier to overcome.

    However faith is not based on singular contact, it is a broad all encompassing net that includes many different groups under the one banner. Faith is not the singular entity that you see and interact with daily. Faith is what we have created our societies around over generations. Most of our social practices and laws have a base built around the common faith within society. Our judgements and understandings have foundations built from generations from within that faith.

    In Australia that faith is Christianity. Now Christianity is generally seen as a faith built on forgiveness and tolerance, much the same as many other non Christian faiths. However there are a few Christian based religions that don’t particularly practice those attributes, but as a whole most do.

    In most of the Islamic nations, most particularly the Middle East, their social laws and practices are based around Islamic teachings. Islam has no tolerance for any other religion, it is written so.

    Only in the few secular Muslim nations, that you have mentioned, can you openly practice another faith. Propagation of said faith is another issue altogether.

    Please keep in mind we are talking collective not singular. Societal laws are instituted for the collective, not the singular. This is where to confusion sets in to those who argue on emotion.

    Right now in Australia, Christianity is the collective’s preferred practice of faith. This is, as always, based on numbers. However we are finding that more and more Sub society enclaves of differing faiths are arising as numbers climb through immigration, natural birth, and subjugation. So even though the percentages don’t seem alarming when viewed across the entirety of society, at closer inspection, we can see smaller groups gathering into larger sub collectives.

    Who cares, we cry.

    Well Europe is now, as they have identified major societal breakdowns as these enclaves are growing larger and in part running a parrallel societal system at odds with the larger collective.

    You need to take the emotional argument out of it. Yes it would be lovely if we could all share lollipops and fart out rainbow coloured stars, but that has never happened and will never happen.

    I am sorry, but to make laws and social judgements you must generalise, there really is no other practical way.
     
    Sallyally likes this.
  8. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    11,951
    Likes Received:
    7,714
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    I believe your rates are wrong too D, In another thread I quoted the South African Police murder rate which is at 69 per 100 000 (think for 2010 or 2011) and Interpol and South African Medical Research board 114.8 per 100 000. The 300 000 death rate I mentioned is only for HIV deaths caused by a Government Health system in shambles and a president who prevents HIV by taking a shower.
     
    Sallyally likes this.
  9. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    15,834
    Likes Received:
    28,238
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Many mistakenly believe that Islam does not tolerate the existence of other religions present in the world. This article discusses some of the foundations the Prophet Muhammad himself laid in dealing with people of other faiths, with practical examples from his lifetime. Part 1: Examples of religious tolerance for people of other faiths found in the constitution which the Prophet laid in Medina
    https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/207/viewall/tolerance-of-prophet-towards-other-religions/
     
    Mr_Truth and Derideo_Te like this.
  10. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The history of intolerance in Christianity is long and bloody.

    The Crusades were centuries of "holy wars", therewas endless bloodshed between Catholics and Protestants, the burning of witches, the inquisition, apartheid, the discrimination against gays are all evidence of a very intolerant religion.

    It was that intolerance that motivated the Founding Fathers to build the wall of separation between church and state here in the USA.
     
    Mr_Truth and Sallyally like this.
  11. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sorry, I missed that part about HIV, I was only looking at the murder rate statistics. From what I gathered it had been up around 78/100k then dropped as low as 32/100k then started climbing again so I was just averaging it out at around 50.

    What I was trying to get at though is that I don't see South Africa as being significantly different to other 3rd world nations when it comes to violent crimes. I suspect that many of the other 3rd world nations show lower rates just because they don't keep accurate records.

    The ANC government has failed to deliver and from all accounts Zuma actually made things worse for the people of South Africa. That is something that needs to be addressed but, as with all 3rd world countries where corruption in government is rife, the odds of it happening are not good.
     
    Mr_Truth, scarlet witch and Sallyally like this.
  12. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is a lot more in the same vein to be found here;

    http://www.islamicity.org/2835/myth-of-islamic-intolerance/

     
    Mr_Truth and Sallyally like this.
  13. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes Received:
    189
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Agreed.

    I guess the question that has to be asked now that both yourself and Sally have cherry picked the post to suit your argument is how do both these faiths stack up today in regards to the teachings of both Jesus and Mohammed? Have they progressed or digressed in terms of social advancement?

    However I feel you are not grasping the point.
    I am not debating the singular. I am debating the collective and the future make up of our society, and no amount of cherry picking the past is going to advance the debate for our future. We must debate the current direction we are heading in and how these two differing faiths interact and will we be content with destination we eventually arive at. Or do we alter direction now, and where will this lead us?
     
  14. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    15,834
    Likes Received:
    28,238
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    I'm not sure what you are asking. Are you saying that the faiths will have to alter to avoid " the destination we eventually arrive at"?
    Are you expecting that the two faiths will not continue to co exist as they do presently?
     
    Mr_Truth and Derideo_Te like this.
  15. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Establishing the facts is not "cherry picking".

    As far as your "point" goes you are behaving as though religions are sentient and capable of acting independently.

    The facts are that there will always be, and currently are, INDIVIDUALS that will EXPLOIT religions for their own personal empowerment albeit that they are using religion as both a false front to hide behind and a means to dishonestly "justify" their actions.

    By phrasing your "point" as you have done you are "buying" into the falsehood that it is the "religion" that is pursuing whatever nefarious action is being taken in the "name" of that religion.

    The way to prevent another "holy war" is to understand who is promulgating the dogma that is inciting the violence and hold them accountable for crimes against humanity. This needs to be done by those of the "same faith" as the inciters.

    Yes, making that happen is easier said than done but it beats the alternative.
     
    Mr_Truth and Sallyally like this.
  16. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes Received:
    189
    Trophy Points:
    63
    The two faiths can not alter enough to co exist in equilibrium.

    Now we are on track.

    Currently in Australia we have a dominant and submissive co-existence. This works because we are a secular society, but make no mistake, our laws and values are distinctly based around the Christian faith.

    Unfortunately there are fewer secular Islamic nations than there are theocratic. King Hussein of Jordan speaks widely and openly of his struggle to maintain secularity amid the growing powers of the faith.

    But what happens when or if equilibrium is acheived?

    Our destination will be determined by whether we are content to reach equilibrium or not.

    We are already seeing changes in sub societies attitude toward the collective in London, Paris, and Stockholm. They have become the majority within the enclave and thus creating a dominant sub collective. Now they are lobying for more say on laws that suit their beliefs but are at odds with the current societal laws. Why not? They are the dominant in that enclave after all.

    This may seem localised, and it is right now as equilibrium has not been reached. However it is a small entree to what may occur as numbers equalise in the future.

    This is a conversation that needs to be had, unfortunately I fear it will be hijacked by redknecks, religious biggots, and political correctness.

    The hypothetical question is can you see yourself living in an Islamic society in the future knowing what you know now about Islamic nations across the globe? Or would you want to keep the status quo?

    Political correctness aside.
     
  17. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes Received:
    189
    Trophy Points:
    63
    There are many religions under each faith, this is something that must be clarified.

    I am talking faith not religion, and yes I am suggesting that faiths can act independently as a controlling force in society.

    Please do not put words in my mouth in an attempt at some cheap shot at exposing a religious zealot. None of my posts have suggested anything “nefarious” by individual or faith. You are creating a debate with yourself, and I will not be drawn into it.

    The only person who has mentioned holy wars is you, and is completely obscolete to the point.

    In an attempt to understand your argument, and correct me if I am wrong, but you are suggesting the way forward to co-existence between the faiths is “cure”, moreso than prevention, which I guess is loosely my point.

    To prevent another misunderstanding, your view is weed out the troublemakers in both faiths to acheive peaceful co-habitation?
     
  18. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    These are your own words from your reply to SallyAlly.

    This is demonizing of Islam as a religion, which in turn denigrates individual Muslims, by alleging that it is going to be "imposed" upon westernized nations.

    That is de facto rabble rousing and fearmongering since it creates a "threat" that does not actually exist until enough hatred is stirred up that results in violence between those of different "faiths".

    Ask the Irish what they accomplished with their "war" between the faiths? Did either side "win"? Was either "faith" declared the "victor"? Or was it more a case of a lot of innocent lives being lost while atrocities were committed on BOTH SIDES?

    What makes you believe what you are advocating is going to be any different?

    Religions can and do coexist peacefully side by side in SECULAR societies.

    The current influx is a result of climate change and war that is making areas uninhabitable. These immigrants are being treated intolerantly by small minded bigots and this is resulting in localized violence escalating into widespread rioting.

    The SMART move is to do what they are doing in Canada. Jewish Temples are welcoming Syrian Refugees.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-rabbis-envy-canadian-counterparts-chance-to-welcome-refugees/

    The SMART move is to do what they are doing in Brussels where they are offering warm beds, showers and meals to refugees from places like Syria, Iraq, Eritrea, South Sudan and Ethiopia.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/brussels-refugee-bnb-180103082106214.html

    This is the HUMANITARIAN way to deal with refugees.

    Inciting conflict is the WRONG way to go about it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    Mr_Truth and Sallyally like this.
  19. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes Received:
    189
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Your pulling rubbish out of the air and wasting my time.
     
  20. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ironic!
     
    Mr_Truth likes this.
  21. truthvigilante

    truthvigilante Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    4,159
    Likes Received:
    289
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Well we were discussing whether people cluster due to racism. This thread is also primarily about South Africa, and South Africa did introduce explicit laws of segregation.

    Correct me if I’m wrong but the pressure to abolish apartheid came from outside the country it seems SW, and wasn’t some good deed from within. I always thought it was a do or die decision(not literally)

    I’m certainly not discriminating against you because you’re a white SA’can but your argument regarding migrants honestly looks as though it is an argument for why people should be separated. I mean that’s the context of discussion. Multiculturalism was a part of this discussion.
    • I can’t recall anyone saying that whites can’t live in “like us” communities. We are the dominate culture in Australia by a huge margin. Look there is no law to say Asians must only sell to Asians and whites should only sell their house to whites to maintain the “like us” communities. If I want to live in Hurstville and an Asian happens to be selling their house, do you think they’ll refuse me because I’m white?
    • Yes I am suggesting that our attitudes were deplorable to all new migrants, especially Non English speaking. For the bloody life of me I don’t know why we have to attempt to look at things from rose coloured glasses. Let’s just be honest from where we have come. We take this silly stance when it comes to aborigines. It just seems ridiculously silly to me....but I am different on my world view, especially from some of my conservative family.
    No I didn’t for one moment think you were framing Asians per se. Your context was about certain ethnic groups clustering and reasons why. I was just re-emphasizing using your yard stick, which was Asians.

    Look people will cluster because of many and varied reasons. There is nothing wrong with it “but” restricting people from living in certain neighbourhoods and from certain services etc would be a problem.
    • I don’t agree that racism is subjective. There is the loose term and the term that nails racism to the wall in its full meaning. Of course other groups can be racist but how do you conclude that?
    Please tell us about apartheid SW because the world must have misunderstood apartheid. Seriously, I’d like to hear your perspective.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    Sallyally likes this.
  22. truthvigilante

    truthvigilante Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    4,159
    Likes Received:
    289
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I think without considering this, it would be easy to suggest a glossy perspective.
     
    Sallyally and Derideo_Te like this.
  23. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    50,653
    Likes Received:
    41,718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Given that the apartheid regime had some Nazi roots (the architect of apartheid was a Nazi sympathizer) the use of propaganda to put a "glossy perspective" over the atrocities and downplay the reality would not be a stretch at all.
     
  24. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    11,951
    Likes Received:
    7,714
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    No we are discussing why people cluster, an my answer is exactly that it's NOT racism... of course you immediately jump on the racism wagon like an alcoholic grabbing for the bottle. Also your assumption that I'm a white South African and therefore automatically approve of Apartheid is discrimination, in exactly the same way M2 decided all Australians are filthy.

    I have come to the conclusion that most Australians don't really have a ****ing clue what racism/discrimination really is. They are also discriminated against on a daily basis by other ethnic groups but oblivious that discrimination can actually run in both directions.

    Racism is subjective because people are, we make it so. We bring all our baggage, values and preconceived ideas (such as that all South African white people approve of Apartheid or Australians are dirty) into their behaviour and words toward others and their perceptions of behaviour and words from others.

    Here's another scenario, what if a Chinese man with a business in one of these 70% plus Asian areas advertise a position. Two people apply, one is Asian, have very little qualifications and experience but speaks Mandarin. The other is highly qualified with at least 10 years of experience, but only speaks English. He gives the job to the person speaking Mandarin, is that racist?
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  25. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    11,951
    Likes Received:
    7,714
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Except it's only become a 3rd world nation in the last 20 years, it used to have a space program, something btw Australia only recently announced. 10th largest stock exchange in the world, we did the first heart transplant, we had nuclear weapons, our hospitals and medical research facilities were first class, first world.

    South Africa, despite it's advanced infrastructure and capabilities, now a 3rd world country within the short time of 20 years, have among the highest HIV rates, people in the west just don't die from HIV anymore. With treatment you can grow old.

    What happens in South Africa is that children are left to fend for themselves as adults die around them, it creates a horrific cycle of poverty and abuse as these children are taken advantage of.

    The South African government is only looking after a corrupt few, corruption in police force is rampant. In fact several years ago they disbanded the Scorpions, which were the internal affairs division for South African police. There is no oversight, as a result corruption comes from the top and goes all the way down to the guy writing tickets.

    This is also why it's so difficult to find crime stats, when you google it, it's all over the place, no one really knows exactly what the stats are, because not only is it not reported properly but the South African Government changes it to make themselves look better. Also HIV deaths are not reported properly, doctors are paid to state people died from Turbeculosis and other diseases instead of Aids due to the stigma.

    The part that annoys me is we're not suppose to criticise or say anything against the South African Government because ...Apartheid. That's rubbish, if it was a white government we'd all be saying the same thing, why not hold the black South African Government to the same standards. That's what it truly means to not discriminate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
    Sallyally likes this.

Share This Page