Barcelona van attack: multiple deaths reported in Las Ramblas area - latest updates

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-satty-madrid-bombings-belgium-a7903966.html

He's since been shot.

 

Most Muslims live in ignorance and that's quite well known. Try to remain calm.

 

Even I will dispute "most Muslims", question:

Do you care about why "many" live in what you call ignorance? I can tell you...
It is simply, because we and here the USA in lead are so smart to back the worst scum of regimes in Muslim countries, because these dictators are your allies and that they depress any sort of freedom and education by backing their power with somehow religious reasons as they were taken by Christians out of New Testament to back the absolute power of kings & Co. is ... how should it be otherwise ... ignored by Washington! So let the people being depressed as far as the dictator is an ally of us!

And then are the Muslims guilty by their own for this ... sure!

 

OK ... so you are the Western and Christian counter part of what is cold Islamist at your chosen enemies prying to Allah! Same sort of arguments and arguing ...

 

You know that we are independent since 1991 ... but because we are a team player in EU and NATO, this makes us for you not being independent, I know...

But again, interesting which proposals you make ... Both financial backed by Moscow (no secret that they are and both confirm it too) and one is communist, the other hidden Nazi who denies to be guilty for WW-2. Interesting!

 

I would never pry at Allah, I always mind my own business.

And FWIW, I'm an atheist.

 

You do not listen to arguments. Therefore, to discuss about Germany and independence does not make sense. For whom to vote in the elections in Germany is your business. I just express my point of view. I will buy popcorn and watch how develops the thriller "Germans and savages" .
Soon in the EU, terrorist attacks will be so frequent that the authorities of Paris may not include the highlight of the Eiffel Tower never.

 

Oh give me a break.

You're blaming the US because of the horrible leaders in these countries?

The only people to blame for these **** countries are the people who live there and their religion.

Or are you saying the US should depose leaders in countries you consider "oppressive" and replace them?

 

It's difficult to dispute facts. All you need do is look at Muslim dominated countries around the world and see where they stand on the human rights/poverty/education/corruption lists.

That's a great example of the sort of ignorance I was referring to. After 13 centuries of ignorance they'll blame it on other countries and cultures.

They are very reluctant to say so but the evidence is clear. As soon as they admit they're lagging far behind the western democracies the sooner those living under Islam can live a life of education, freedom and an acknowledgement of human rights. However there is a strong movement within Islam to not only curtail education and freedom of those coerced into Islam but to go back to the time of Mohamed himself. This should be discouraged and stopped.

 

Since Islam itself is oppressive it really doesn't matter what non-Muslim countries do. Muslims are not particularly introspective.

 

I doubt anyone minds Muslims praying to Allah for much of the day but couldn't they do it in a more dignified manner? Pointing their asses at each other can be amusing to watch the first few times but shouldn't there be a movement of some sort to attach more dignity or grace to this rather crude practice?

Is this type of praying really called "Crescent Mooning"?

 

And why do you support them all the time in majority as USA? In detail: Why do you still support Saudi Arabia, where right all these evil things are daily reality?

I could give you a long answer and educate you about historical facts, but I will reduce it here again to the simple part of "after WW-2" when it was the USA and also Britain in the beginning who did their best that right these dickheads of Islamists were hold in power to depress their people by reasoning their dictatorship by Islam. Any movement of democracy and secularization coming form the people there was depressed by the regimes and the US did their best to support the regimes to forbid secularization and democracy there!
And if they failed on first hand to do so ... like in Iran when they slept when there was an at all points full democratic and fair election which was won by Mossadegh abd who then had the impudence to ask, since when Iran is colony of British American Oil companies and since when they have to decide how much of the profit they make with Iranian oil they give Iran and when he then kicked them out of Iran, the CIA and MI-5 did their best to organize a coup against him which brought in the Shah in full power and as puppet of them ... and in the following the CIA did their best to train and help Iranian Services to depress any opposition. Made them very much liked by Iranian people and much more, when the CIA used the US embassy as HQ for a counter coup to kick of Khamenei until Iranian students stormed the embassy (what is of course no excuse to do so and to take hostages etc., but made it explainable, eh?).

Historically, the Islam was for centuries in advance of Christians as we all know, but then happened in Western Europe something which is called secularization and also the Christian reformation with the break up between catholic and protestant. The point is that since end of Roman Empire were Popes very strong and powerful, as well was the Pope and were Bishops and Cardinals also Lords and Counts for ecclesiastical issues. BUT ... there was often enough a dispute between this and that king or Emperor and the Pope and this together with the split into catholic and protestant due to Luther, the secularization was done and gave us the enlightenment etc.
This did never happen in Islam due to fact that most parts of them were under control of Ottoman Empire and their Sultan, including the sub Lords of local areas and here was never any secularization or had a real chance to happen, because any dividing of religious and ecclesiastical things would have brought the lost of power to the local kings and counts up to the Sultan himself.
And right after the end of Ottoman Empire at end of WW-2 was a chance for this things when the centralized system was away ... but these clever European colonial powers France and Britain had no interest in it and powered the former local chiefs and kings as new subs to them to hold control ...and right these powers took over control after end of French and British Empire and colonies there until today!

 

I certainly don't support SA in any way and, despite their veneer of modernity well ahead of other Muslim countries, are still a backward nation. I agree with you.

Please spare me these long and biased diatribes blaming others for Islamic evils. They've had centuries to evolve into a more decent and humane society but have never quite managed. While it's great for the clerics and theocrats it has done the people born into this system much harm.

Look at what Muslims are doing today - their more recent history. If they're looking for past villains to explain away their modern-day savagery and anti educational policies they'll only garner more disrespect and ridicule. We know they'll kill those who dare challenge Islam by murdering innocent people who have done nothing, in fact those who may have one time had sympathy for Muslims, but what does this achieve?

Muslims in general are ignorant, there is just too much evidence to support this charge. But that needn't be so. If these young people are able to attend schools where they can learn subjects other than the Koran, where they can test their knowledge in many other areas and read books that are now forbidden by the clerics, there is no reason why these people can't take their place among all other societies anywhere. But indoctrinating children with nonsense while creating artificial enemies everywhere, is evil. It is robbing human beings of a life free from hatreds as well as a broader knowledge of the world they were born into.

 

Most of these are retaliatory strikes or simply actions taken during a conflict between the US and another country. You guys support these shadowy groups that most the world calls terror, you can expect people to hit back. I will go over these one by one to separate the anti-US tripe vs the actual sad incidents that need to be learned from.

But as I stated below, you guys have statues for your suicide bombers, we try to remember and learn from the things we do and pay out compensation for the mistakes we have made. Does Iran pay families money after their suicide bombers kill people?. Other people can decide who they think is the worse actor of each incident.

Anyways, the forum readers can now get a chance to see what the truth is behind each of your stories since all you did was make claims with zero backing. They can decide what they think themselves even though I know it's popular for you Iranians to scream about how evil the US is.

(By the way, is this link copy and pasted from somewhere?)

Anyways, I digress.....

• the shooting down of two Libyan planes in 1981
Libya made an illegal claim on international waters and then FIRED on a pair of US F-14's. The F-14 Tomcat's evaded the missiles then turned around and killed the attackers (lol) . Brings up rule #1o not attack the US or our allies unless you want to be attacked back.

• the bombing of Lebanon in 1983 and 1984
A Civil War in which the US and France supported a side that took on a group backed by Iran and Syria. No evil conspiracies, just another typical proxy war that Iran lost. Pretty funny that you guys (Iran) still deny any of this including suicide bombings. The US took out military targets that supported you and your suicide bombers and "Jihadists". By the way, you guys actually have a statue in Tehran dedicated to the "Martyrs" from this incident, disgusting if you ask me. But again, a conflict you lost and now try to claim the US is evil/mean/whatever because of, means nothing really.

• the bombing of Libya in 1986
This was a retaliatory strike as in WE WERE ATTACKED FIRST. A response to the German Discotheque bombing in Berlin. Libya was accused and proven to be the sponsors of such an attack so we took out certain facilities. Again, see rule #1, don't attack the US or our friends like Germany. We will hit back .... harder. No crime here obviously, unless you are Iranian and hate the US of course....

• the bombing and sinking of an Iranian ship in 1987
Response to US frigate being mined. The International Courts said we did not breach any treaties with the retaliatory actions but did say they thought we went overboard. Pretty standard and I support hitting someone back harder who has just hit you. Lesson to learn? Respect Rule #1

• the shooting down of an Iranian passenger plane in 1988
Horrible accident and if you look at the case very closely you can see that this is what happens when the "tinder box" of military operations is pushed too closely together. The captain is an absolute idiot, the international Fogarty report stated "...the Fogarty report concluded that Rogers acted in a prudent manner based on the information available to him..." HOWEVER he had 'illegally' moved to Iranian waters so the point was moot and the information obviously NOT prudent. Furthermore until he was called out directly, he TRIED to cover it up, what a schmuck. The Iranian government has dropped any concerns about the incident as the US paid agreed upon reparations. So while horrible, this isn't really some malicious crimes you are speaking of. Crime? Perhaps, but proven to be an accident and paid for, see it as you will really.

• the shooting down of two more Libyan planes in 1989
Again, the same overall conflict that Libya and the US went through for a while. Not as clear cut as the other incident with Libyan places in this Gulf, but I would have done the same thing if I was the pilots' captain. The Libyan pilots intercepted the Carriers and their squadrons in International Waters. We have this all on camera btw, the Libyan pilots made attempt after attempt at "combat maneuvering" but the F-14's never lost the initiative. Finally after over 10 minutes of 2v2 dog fighting (that is a LONG time for that) the American pilots were finally given the "OK' to treat the Libyans as aggressors and take them down first. Afterwards, the Libyan's claimed many offenses in International Court, however they were shown to be blatantly lying in almost every aspect as the US had pictures of the Libyan planes fully armed. After this international court/onion was strongly against Libya as they were proven to be flat out liars.. I could see this one 50/50 however, after such actions I am happy our pilots killed first instead of being killed. Of course, an Iranian however would see it the other way I am sure. Overall though, claiming this as a crime is laughable at best.

• the massive bombing of the Iraqi people in 1991
See Rule #1: Do not attack the US and our allies. While the second Gulf War is absolutely questionable at best, this one was justified and I would do it again if I were in charge. Iraq doesn't get ot just invade Kuwait.... Iran and Iraq used to hate each other sooooo much, I find it interesting to see so many Iranians now forgetting that part of history so they can further attack the US.

• the continuing bombings and draconian sanctions against Iraq for the next 12 years
Uh, same answer as above as the sanctions were in place to diminish the massive army of Iraq after their invasion. Why do you hate Kuwait so much and support the Iraqi invasion of their country?

• the bombing of Afghanistan and Sudan in 1998
I actually don't know about this and I am pretty well versed in my countries history. I will do some digging when I get into my home office, but if you have a link for this I would be happy to see. 1988 was still the Soviet occupation times (very end of it) so I am confused on what bombing you are talking about.

• the habitual support of Israel despite the routine devastation and torture it inflicts upon the Palestinian people
We get it, you hate Israel. However we do not care what you think, period. They are in a conflict with Palestine and we have tried year after year after year to facilitate peace between the two groups. Palestine and your country of Iran do not think Israel should exist which makes things very difficult. We have shown FAR more willingness to work together than you and Palestine and while I do not support Israeli violence or the illegal settlements, it is pretty obvious to see the measures they take are to protect their citizens. You may disagree with their actions, but if so you should try to talk with them and the world community instead of wanting to "push Israel into the sea". Not supportive of everything Israel has done, but their actions have been more respectable than Palestine/Iran so far.

• the habitual condemnation of Palestinian resistance to this
Same thing as above, is there a reason you made this into two bullet points? Basically this is a conflict and you support the other side, I am seeing a pattern here, when there is a conlict you disagree with it is a "crime". Pretty poor propaganda on your part.

• the abduction of “suspected terrorists” from Muslim countries, such as Malaysia, Pakistan, Lebanon and Albania, who were then taken to places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, where they were tortured
Links? I assume this is guys like Osama Bin Laden? Overall this is too broad a statement to agree with or disagree with. Proven terrorist that are attacking my country? I have ZERO problem with arresting these guys and stopping them from trying to kill myself or my allies. There are a few cases where we were definitely wrong but most cases we capture open and true terrorists, most often supported by Iran. Why do you support the terrorists in the first place? Overall, back to Rule #1

• the large military and hi-tech presence in Islam’s holiest land, Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere in the Persian Gulf region
SA is our partner and ally. This is really the one that gives away the fact that you are Iranian. Either way it is a completely unabashed lie to call this a crime since we are invited there by SA. Come on man, you gotta at least TRY to make sense.

• the support of numerous undemocratic, authoritarian Middle East governments from the Shah of Iran to Mubarak of Egypt to the Saudi royal family
You are getting suuuuper vague here, I think because you are trying to get as many bullet points as possible and we are getting closet to the end of your list. You do not support these groups/governments because you are Iranian, it is clearly obvious to see the groups you call out and why. Just because we do not support the guys you like means nothing to the rest of the world nor the "legalities" of the situation. Why do you support the violent groups in Yemen, for instance? We support two different sides, period. How is this a crime? To the forum readers reading this .... it is not.

• the invasion, bombing and occupation of Afghanistan, 2001 to the present, and Iraq, 2003 to the present
Afghanistan is a war supported by the president and a large portion of Afghanistan itself. Whether or not you think this is a war worth fighting is the real question. But to call this a "crime" is once again a lie that further proves your rather obvious intentions. I personally think we screwed Iraq up twice, the first was deciding to invade and topple Saddam, the second was to pull out too quickly. We should have done one or the other but instead have left a vacuum for groups supported by your country Iran to take over and bring about a new front. Closest thing on your list to a "crime" in my opinion, but still is really just a conflict you either agree with or disagree with. I personally am of the party that thinks the latter.

• the bombings and continuous firing of missiles to assassinate individuals in Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, and Libya during the period of 2006-2011
With ISIS being what they are the majority of these attacks are absolutely justified. You are painting with a massively broad brush here which is ridiculous. There are a couple that had negative effects but overall this is the reaction to a conflict against a now almost global group, ISIS. Overall though this is obviously not a crime, do you support ISIS? I assumed no because of Iran doing a great job fighting them, is it just to cheer for ISIS whenever they are in combat with the US? What a nasty thing to think....

This is why people do not take you guys seriously. This is all part of the hyper victimization culture going on everywhere and it is thankfully starting to be called out more and more. Supposedly the generation after the Millennials (my groups, sadly...) HATES the PC culture and the victim status like this. I look forward to seeing the overall change in culture as we go on.

 

Why does it make him racist to point out an absolute fact? You have no problem calling out "facts" about the US? Can we all you a "anti-US bigot" now?

Muslim countries are absolutely more crappy on average than non Muslim countries. If you think there is no correlation between the religion and the success/happiness of the people that so be it.

Thankfully more and more people disagree with you

 

OK, but then start to blame Trump please, because he has another opinion!

This is right the reaction of FACTS which won't to be taken I get so often and which makes me saying that Islam haters are all low-brainers who have no clue and won't have any clue which disturbs their believes!

 

Firstly, you don't know what you're talking about Re: "you guys" as I am a 66 year old American Veteran who spent 10 - 11 in the Islamic Middle East as a civilian in order to see the other side of the conflict.
Have you?
Additionally, I am not Iranian or a supporter of terrorism whether committed by the East or the West and I can assure you that people do take open minded experienced travelers to the Mid East much more seriously than those immune to the reality that there are 2 sides to every story.

You missed the salient issue in attempting to excuse US crimes in the Islamic world and that is "we" were /are over "there" killing "them" as I noted in the issue you ignored: "Iraqi Deaths". "We" are doing so primarily to appease implacable Israeli lobbies.(1)

One of the questions I was most frequently asked while in the Islamic World was: "Why do Americans suddenly hate us?" in reference to America's anti Muslim / pro Israel Foreign Policy.
I tried to explain the toxic influence of Zionist dominated MSM and AIPAC's influence of US Foreign Policy was responsible for the bulk of warped, one-sided American views but my Muslim hosts still couldn't understand how a people they admire, (Americans) could be so easily duped nor can I.

(1) “QUIETLY LOBBYING CONGRESS TO APPROVE THE USE OF FORCE IN IRAQ WAS ONE OF AIPAC’S SUCCESSES OVER THE PAST YEAR.”

AIPAC Executive Director Howard Kohr; N.Y. Sun, Jan. 2003

 

Yes,"You Guys", as in people who hold the "Iran is a Saint, the US is evil" which you are implying, is the viewpoint you are talking about. Of course you would start your opinion of with the victimization BS to try to steer the topic off at least just a bit, so pathetic. Thank god people now see this tactic and call it out for what it is.

So again, YOU GUYS, look at the facts the way you want to and that is fine. But I will call you out on a public forum so people get to see the other side of your partisanship.

 

I already know the answer but since

, have you had ANY experiences with Muslims in the Islamic world or are you just regurgitating what's been poured into your head via Western MSM over a few years?

 

Not really sure if it is possible to stop these new "Van Attack" type terror.

The best we can do is just be more aware of the threat and make sure to keep explosives out of the equation as best as possible.

It will be funny if this happens in a Texas or a free carry state and the driver just immediately gets shot.

 

I may do that if the President becomes a member of this board.

And yet, despite being 'low brainers', you can't respond coherently to a debate.What does that say for your intelligence?

 

These people have had a lasting experience with Muslims. https://stream.org/wapo-writes-islamic-terrorism-pulse-nightclub-shooting/

 

I don't think you know what a Wahhabist is.

It's amazing that so many Westerners, right and left, speak so authoritatively about Islam with zero real understanding.

 

...And these many more people have had lasting experiences with Western powers:

"Iraq Deaths"
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq

EXCERPT "A study, published in prestigious medical journal The Lancet, estimated that over 600,000 Iraqis had been killed as a result of the invasion as of July 2006. Iraqis have continued to be killed since then. The death counter provides a rough daily update of this number based on a rate of increase derived from the Iraq Body Count. (See the complete explanation.)

The estimate that over a million Iraqis have died received independent confirmation from a prestigious British polling agency in January 2008. Opinion Research Business estimated that the death toll between March 2003 and August 2007 was 1,033,000." CONTINUED

 

Who do you think the US should support in the Islamic world? Should we actively support opposition groups in the KSA or Egypt? Are you worried about that policy creating new Libyas and Syrias?

Here's a simple truth that I want Westerners, especially leftists, to understand. To the chagrin of Western right-wingers, leftist notions of who the "good" guys are deeply embedded in Western culture. The fact of the matter is that our notions of ethics and "good" politics aren't universal. Rulership as it exists in, say, the KSA, has a long history in Islamic political culture.

There is no such thing as progress, because there is no measuring stick. What Western liberals and socialists see as progress in non-Western countries is simply those cultures succumbing to our influence.

You're a lot more like the Imperialists of 150 years ago than you think.