Benjamin Watson to ‘unveil the truth about abortion’ in documentary featuring Dr. Ben Carson, Alveda

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by XXJefferson#51, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,780
    Likes Received:
    8,822
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The issue here is that one person is being directly damaged by that innocent life, birth causes tons of emotional and physical damage not to mention loss of income during and after pregnancy.

    Who’s rights matter more and where is the line drawn?
    This isn’t a black and white issue like both sides try to make it.


    Call me cynical but I just don’t think the meth junky — living in the crack house in the bad part of town — being forced to have a child is going to be a good thing for anyone.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
    Meta777 likes this.
  2. XXJefferson#51

    XXJefferson#51 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,604
    Likes Received:
    1,260
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    So the baby would be better off dead than have a chance to make a life for herself or himself?
     
    Texas Republican likes this.
  3. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2015
    Messages:
    27,642
    Likes Received:
    18,865
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In the meth head example, the state would take the child away.

    I think killing/murder/death is the worst thing we can do as humans. If it comes down to someone possibly suffering emotional problems vs. stopping a life, I’d favor risking psychological problems in one rather than ending the life of the other.
     
    XXJefferson#51 likes this.
  4. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,780
    Likes Received:
    8,822
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Would a child be better off not being born than being born addicted to methamphetamine that will likely be abused it’s entire childhood — emotionally and likely physically/sexually — and be in the group that compromises 63% of youth suicides, 85% of behavioral disorders, 71% of high school dropouts, 70% of the juvenile detention population and are the most likely group to end up in prison for violent crime?

    Is that a real question?
     
  5. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,780
    Likes Received:
    8,822
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So you believe she should be forced to basically be an incubator and then have the child taken by the state and placed into a state run institution? Who pays for all of this?

    Pregnancy and birth do more than just cause “psychological problems”, there are numerous physical conditions all the way up to death. So the life of the zygote is worth more than the life of the mother in your eyes?
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
  6. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    28,296
    Likes Received:
    9,200
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I would imagine you are trying to in some way create an impression of some great Abortion hero, unfortunately even minimal research would indicate the flaws as he was a Pediatric (Born children) surgeon who worked with aborted fetuses in research but is famous for conjoined twin separation.....Do a bit of research before you spew.
     
  7. XXJefferson#51

    XXJefferson#51 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,604
    Likes Received:
    1,260
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    So being dead is better than being alive and trying to beat the odds? Besides in that extreme example such a child would most likely be taken away and adopted as an infant into a stable family.
     
  8. XXJefferson#51

    XXJefferson#51 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,604
    Likes Received:
    1,260
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I watched a sermon on a religious cable channel last month where in his sermon in California he mentioned how God assisted him in his surgical procedures and one he mentioned was in fact operating on a baby in the mother’s womb.
     
  9. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    28,296
    Likes Received:
    9,200
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Wow....so you not only believe this claptrap you also believe in a sky fairy?

    Have A Nice Day:)
     
  10. XXJefferson#51

    XXJefferson#51 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,604
    Likes Received:
    1,260
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I see that this current event news story has been segregated to the abortion ghetto. Oh well. Are there sub categories for all current event topics?
     
  11. XXJefferson#51

    XXJefferson#51 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,604
    Likes Received:
    1,260
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, I believe in God and am a Christian. You have a nice day too.
     
  12. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,780
    Likes Received:
    8,822
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Do I believe women should be forced against their will to act as incubators for babies that will be seized by the government, placed into the foster system or religious adoption agencies — that only allow adoption to go through if the adoptive family guarantee indoctrination of the chosen religion — all at tax payer expense?

    The answer is absolutely no.

    It is insane that you do.
     
  13. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2008
    Messages:
    28,296
    Likes Received:
    9,200
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    As it currently stands, that is likely the only way they can keep up membership.
     
    cd8ed likes this.
  14. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2015
    Messages:
    27,642
    Likes Received:
    18,865
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If it was possible to ask the child, they would probably say I’d rather grow up in poverty than be snuffed out pre-birth.
     
  15. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,780
    Likes Received:
    8,822
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The continually increasing youth suicide rate — especially in rural states — disagrees with your assertion.

    Again, who pays for this process or forced incubation and why is the mothers life worth so much less to you than a rapidly dividing cell?
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
  16. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    12,513
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I know a person who had fetal alcohol syndrome...her mother and father were hard alcoholics...parents died when this child was just 4. She had issues, delayed development, hyperactive..obvious obstacles through childhood. She's now a beautiful, engaging 20 something that loves life, works, has a boyfriend and is the most responsible of her siblings. Who are you or anybody to say she should have been killed?
     
  17. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,780
    Likes Received:
    8,822
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am not saying she should have been killed, where did you pull that absurdity from?
     
  18. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    12,513
    Likes Received:
    1,262
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Just responding to your post. You were talking about meth though... So if her mother was on Meth should she have been killed?
     
  19. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,780
    Likes Received:
    8,822
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don’t believe anyone should be killed; I am against abortion except in extreme cases once fetal development takes place — brain functioning, ability to feel pain, etc — but I do not believe forcing women to act as incubators to the state is ethical, especially when it is people that have no business being a parent to begin with under the guise of putting them into the already overcrowded system.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
  20. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2015
    Messages:
    27,642
    Likes Received:
    18,865
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I was born less than nine months after my parents were married. Back in 1961-62, that was a little more stigmatized than it is today. I’m glad I wasn’t aborted. My kids are glad, too.

    Volunteer organizations are willing to assist mothers through the pregnancy. The Catholic Church was always huge in assisting with adoptions, until the ACLU and the government shut them down.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2020
  21. Oh Yeah

    Oh Yeah Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,527
    Likes Received:
    1,633
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Should be to protect all life.
     
  22. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,780
    Likes Received:
    8,822
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am sure.
    But that doesn’t negate the point that the second leading cause of death in the youth is suicide behind the catch all “accidents”.

    They did that to themselves by demanding that only parents that guaranteed to push the indoctrination of the church were allowed to adopt. And the taxpayers were subsidizing it.

    That’s one of my biggest issues with the pro-birth crowd, they want to dictate the terms of the pregnancy and then also dictate the terms of the adoption all the while children languish in a system that has some pretty poor outcomes. If it was about the children then they would support children going to any stable and loving home and would be for programs to make sure the child is healthy, well educated and protected.
     
  23. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2015
    Messages:
    27,642
    Likes Received:
    18,865
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The Catholic Church had an excellent record of success in finding families for children.
     
  24. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    12,999
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well said. In truth, there is a whole range of positions to take on the issue.
    Not merely two absolutes as another poster in the thread actually claimed.
    The simple question of where to place the cutoff line alone hosts a good
    number of positions between the extremes, as well as multiple reasons
    for why someone might choose any of those positions as illustrated by
    the varied list we were able to come up with as part of a vote on the topic.

    To boil things down to a mere either or is unproductive imo and adds to the already ample divisiveness surrounding the issue.
    ...then again.... maybe some folks actually like it that way... not me though.

    A. Lovemaking (Week 0): Because Any Form of Abortion is Murder
    B. Conception (Week 0): Because Life Begins at Conception
    C. Conception (Week 0): Because since no one knows exactly when a zygote becomes a child, it must be assumed to qualify as one
    D. Nervous System (Week 12): Because the baby’s senses are developing and it looks pretty human at that stage
    E. Viability (Week 20): Because the earliest surviving baby was born at just over 21 weeks
    F. Thalamic Afferents (Week 20): Because its been theorized that connections between afferents may be capable of pain transmission
    G. Thalamocortical Fibers (Week 23): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Thalamocortical Fibers
    H. Viability (Week 24): Because that's when the law defines a fetus as becoming a child
    I. Viability (Week 24): Because that's when a fetus is able to live outside the woman without artificial means
    J. Thalamocortical Fibers (Week 29): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Functional Thalamocortical Fibers
    K. Pain Perception Dvmnt (Week 23-29): Because a fetus cannot suffer feel or perceive pain without Functional Thalamocortical Fibers
    L. Pain Perception Dvmnt (Week 20-29): Because this is the period in which a fetus develops the structures necessary for pain perception
    M. Mental Life (Week 29): Because fetal consciousness cannot and has not been observed to occur before this point
    @. Medical Community (Week ??): Because the decision should be left to the doctors and patients who are more than capable
    N. Birth (Week ??): Because That is When a Baby No Longer Depends On Its Mother to Live
    O. Birth (Week ??): Because Women Should Always Have the Right to do What They Want With Their Body

    But even beyond choosing the cutoff point for legal abortion, there are even more aspects to consider.
    I don't think any abortion discussion these days should go without at least some mention of role
    improved access to contraceptives can play. And there is more beyond even that...

    Its simply not as much of a black-and-white issue as some folks try to make it out to be.
    The sooner more people accept that, the sooner we as a people can agree to a reasonable compromise on the issue.

    -Meta
     
  25. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    12,999
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It isn't really as simple as that. The ending of a life... one containing human genetic material... I don't believe that anyone would ever try to argue against that claim. But when it comes to determining where the cutoff for legal abortion should be, one has to consider when exactly (at what stage) this life is ending, and what kind of life it is at that point. For instance, people never seem to bat an eye whenever the life of a skin, sperm, or egg cell is lost. When it comes to the abortion debate, we need to ask ourselves why exactly that is, as this will aid greatly in determining where the cutoff for legal abortion should be and why. Because between a single-celled sperm and egg being created and a baby being born there are an entire spectrum of steps in between, and it is somewhere within this process that the growing entity gains something which many would deem worthy of protection. A lot of folks seem to have trouble putting it into clear words though, but it is important to do so for such discussions to be productive.

    -Meta
     

Share This Page