Bernie Sanders vs Corruption.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Fangbeer, Feb 1, 2016.

  1. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A socialist theorist will insist that it is in the people's best interest to form a collective to keep private corruption & greed in check. If this is the case, the government must have some form of system in place to keep its own corruption and greed in check that is superior to any private method of doing so.

    So this leads me to my question.

    Specifically why has Bernie refrained from attacking Hillary on the basis of her own corruption & greed? If the government functions so well as a moral body, why is it that Bernie Sanders: champion of socially imposed morality, hasn't spoken out against the corruption and greed that exists within the government itself? If he is willing to overlook these issues within the political body, what other issues will he overlook to serve his own political interest?
     
  2. OldGuy?wise

    OldGuy?wise Active Member Past Donor

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    If there were no greed, this world would peaceful and green, but obviously some (? most) people are greedy and this leads to corruption and its abuses. Freedom allows for individual expression of thought, belief and creativity, but it also allows for the expression of greed (corruption). It is up to society, not individuals (who are probably greedy anyway) to control corruption in individuals, corporations and the government. It may take awhile to control all forms of corruption, but let's start somewhere.
     
  3. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sanders talks a good game but at the end of the day he is a liberal lemming that will turn a blind eye to the errors of his fellow democrats.
     
  4. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You expressed two contradictory values. The first is freedom. The second is control. A person cannot be free if they are controlled. No societal structure can control individuals. We are not robots. It can only penalize undesired behavior through the use of force.

    Society does not have a hive mind. It is constructed entirely of individuals with individual interests. In an effort to organize cooperation, we appoint representatives to speak and act on behalf of the civil society. These representatives are individuals, but the ability to speak and act on behalf of many others grants them a degree of power over the individuals they represent. I want to understand this socialist drive to instill within these representatives even greater power; given that power has historically and presently been shown to be used for corrupt and greedy behavior that rivals the behavior of the supposed bad actors it purports to have the ability to control.

    What makes political interest more moral than individual self interest? When a politician is greedy he effects everyone he has power over. Why is this different than the struggle for power between business and consumer?

    Beyond that I want to see specifically if anyone can resolve the dissonance between Bernie's claims that he can resolve issues of corruption through the force of government, and his tacit dismissal of corruption in his election opponent. If Bernie won't address it in his opponent, why should we trust him to address it anywhere else?
     
  5. Nordic Democrat

    Nordic Democrat Well-Known Member

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    Bernie has been fighting corruption in Washington his entire career. I have always said he should have attacked Clinton more for her role in what he dubs immoral in the context of our political system.
     
  6. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Also, if you're having difficulty locating corruption in a woman that is currently demanding the release of sensitive state department emails that she first refused to release and then tried to delete, then you're not paying attention.
     
  7. Uber Lib

    Uber Lib New Member

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    fang, don't you just wish to merely vent irrational rage and blatant ignorance?
     
  8. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you disagree that Bernie requires centralized power to "fight corruption" in the manner he proposes, and do you disagree that centralized power is exactly where corruption thrives?
     
  9. Nordic Democrat

    Nordic Democrat Well-Known Member

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    I agree that, in the context of an election, revolution requires a non centralized grassroots effort, which is what Bernie is doing. I think the question of centralized government isn't a question of who has power, it's more a question of who that centralized power works FOR. The USA centralizes power in the federal government and we have billionaires influencing the process, as well as numerous other shady dealings. Countries like Denmark and Iceland have centralized socialist economies that are democratically run, and they have the least corrupt governments in the world.
     
  10. Crossedtoes

    Crossedtoes Active Member

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    Denmark is ranked higher than the United States in economic freedom, and their prime minister has come out rejecting the "socialist" label, describing Denmark as a market economy.
     
  11. OldGuy?wise

    OldGuy?wise Active Member Past Donor

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    How do Denmark and Iceland control or limit corruption in government and business?
     
  12. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Since your case studies are countries that are less than 2% the size of the American economy I'd say that the incentive for corruption is just a bit higher here in America. Regardless, in both instances the centralized power works for its own self interest. So again, why is political self interest any different from private self interest?
     
  13. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He never has in the past. He has called down members of both parties on corruption. This may be the first election with real choice in several decades if Bernie and Trump get the nominations. Both parties are rife with corruption and have both been serving the same war profiteering bank swindlers since JFK was murdered in Dallas.

    Either Bernie or Trump could end up shaking things up and returning our government to the voters and away from the internationalist scumbags who are pulling the strings now. If I were either one of them, I would hire my own security team of people I really trust as those who are now in power would not think twice about killing anyone who threatens their golden goose.

    I would support either of these seemingly whacky candidates over any of the standard sellout whores or religious nut bags running against them. I sure hope we don't get another farcical political hoax of an election this year. Go Bernie, and Go Donald!
     
  14. OldGuy?wise

    OldGuy?wise Active Member Past Donor

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    Why are there speed limits? Why are there hunting seasons? Why are the big, strong, and young not allowed to beat the crap out of the old, small and weak? What limits should be placed on lying, cheating, stealing and greediness?
     
  15. Nordic Democrat

    Nordic Democrat Well-Known Member

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    I will take your point about our size with a grain of salt, because small countries also have corruption. You didn't hear my point, social democracy is centralized government FOR the people. We have centralized government that is in bed with corporate power, and the political power feeds that.
     
  16. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And the corporate power, that's controlled by orangutans...not people, right?
     
  17. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not orangutans, but a small group of self serving entities who do not care what is really good for the majority of US citizens.
     
  18. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The purpose of government is to create a framework for trade, security, & the defense of liberty. American government was founded on the principle that government should be afforded the least authority possible to accomplish this goal. There are no speed limits on my private property, for example. Speed limits pertain to regulated public roads in the interest of supporting a functional transportation system. Hunting seasons are an attempt to regulate & conserve public resources. The big and strong do beat the crap out of the old small and weak and sometimes the old small and weak beat the crap out of the big and strong. Government cannot prevent people from doing so even after they incarcerate them for such behavior. I suspect what you are talking about are laws that penalize this behavior under certain conditions. This is because we have an public interest in protecting natural human rights. These rights would be life, liberty, and the ownership of property. Limits should be placed on lying, cheating, stealing, and greediness only as they intersect with and inhibit the natural human rights of others. We have a government and a system of judicial review to determine when these intersections take place, and to enforce just compensation as a consequence.

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    Government is also a small group of self serving entities. Why do they care any different?
     
  19. Papastox

    Papastox Well-Known Member

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    Bernie rails against super PACs and is so proud how ordinary citizens are funding his campaign, yet he fails to mention that he has super PACs too:


    Bernie Sanders Has Benefited More From Super PAC Money Than His Democratic Rivals
    By Rmuse on Mon, Feb 1st, 2016

    The Super Pac in question said they 'appreciate the irony' and would 'rather not be doing this' but they 'want to see Bernie as president'.

    If there is only one thing Americans the least bit familiar with neophyte Democrat Bernie Sanders (I-VT) are aware of, it is his abhorrence of Citizens United-driven super PAC and special interest money in politics. In fact, throughout the past week traversing Iowa, Senator Sanders never missed an occasion to slam the rise of money in the political process.

    “It is a “system,” Sanders bellows loudly from the campaign stages, “that is corrupt and undermining American democracy.” Obviously, such a position informs that Senator Sanders is not and will never take a red cent from a special interest group; particularly not a super PAC.

    Senator Sanders is right of course, but what is likely not right is that accompanying him through Iowa was a group of nurses whose “super PAC” has doled out close to $1 million on ads and other kinds of campaign support for Sanders. What should raise a “hypocrisy alert” is that this is the same candidate who incites liberal and EmoProg supporters with persistent calls to eradicate such outside groups from political campaigns. Out of deference to ‘feeltheBern’ acolytes’ sensibilities, it is better to raise an “inconsistency alert” to avoid being accused of being a Clinton, Wall Street, and Koch paid shill.

    As a matter of pure uncontested fact, there has been more super PAC money spent thus far in express support of the Sanders campaign than for either one of his Democratic rivals. Let that sink in. That includes, by the way, former Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton according to Federal Election Commission (FEC) records. And no, the FEC is not paid by the Clinton campaign, or Koch brothers, or Wall Street any more than this column is. Their job is to report who is contributing to the Sanders’ campaign based on information provided by the Sanders’ campaign and the super PAC according to FEC campaign finance reporting requirements.

    The super PAC and group following the Sanders’ campaign in and around Iowa is National Nurses United. The group’s executive director, RoseAnn DeMoro said, regarding the super PAC’s largesse for Sanders, that “I do appreciate the irony. All things being equal, we would rather not be doing this. On the other hand, we want to see Bernie as president.”

    Ms. DeMoro confuses “irony” with hypocrisy; or “inconsistency.” A super PAC funding, and the candidate accepting, super PAC and special interest money when the candidate perpetually slams special interest and super PAC money in politics is not “irony.” It is hypocrisy to regular people, inconsistency to some others. However, to Senator Sanders it is not even an inconsistency because he is not Hillary Clinton.

    Some of Clinton’s supporters have suggested the term “hypocrisy” over the Sanders’ campaign taking “special interest money” from a super PAC. They also note that the Senator has never called National Nurses United to refrain from doling out special interest money to his campaign; something they are able to do thanks to Citizens United. If anything, Senator Sanders not only is not “shunning” special interest money as he pledged, he began openly thanking what he calls “one of his sponsors” publicly in campaign speeches; people in audiences like nurses.

    A spokesman for the Clinton campaign, Brian Fallon, said, “This is one of the prime examples of Senator Sanders saying one thing and doing another. For months he has criticized super PACs and pledged to shun them in his campaign, but all along he has benefited from hundreds of thousands of dollars in independent expenditures from those very organizations.” In the case of National Nurses United, the number is a million dollars and an ornate bus shuttling around a retinue of “scrub-clad” nurses Senator Sanders refers to by name on stage in Iowa.

    It is noteworthy that Senator Sander’s “inconsistent” rise to Super PAC pre-eminence is, in part, due to an unusual pairing of the Sanders campaign and Republican and ultra-conservative super PAC spending to attack Hillary Clinton. Of course the conservatives’ intent is simply to “elevate an avowed socialist.” One that Republicans, conservatives, and the Koch brothers believe will be easy to disparage in a general election. Don’t believe conservative PACs are helping Senator Sanders?

    In just one recent ad from the influential Republican super PAC American Crossroads, the uber-conservative group spent a substantial amount of its and the Kochs’ $4.3 million against Clinton parroting a constant Sanders’ attack against Clinton for earning Wall Street speaking fees. There have been no small number of pundits who have suggested, not errantly according to the American Crossroads ad campaign, that a fair share of the attacks on Clinton from “alleged” liberals are being funded and promoted by uber-conservative groups.

    If one looks at it from that perspective, Senator Sanders’ campaign is being funded and assisted by more than just one special interest super PAC, and at least one of them is run by Karl Rove.

    There is nothing wrong with a campaign taking special interest money; at least not according to Citizens United ruling that Sanders abhors. However, there is an issue when a candidate fairly bases a key part of their campaign and appeal on “shunning” special interest and super PAC money; all while claiming it is funded by grass roots contributors and now Americans know by special interests and super PACs; even uber-conservative super PACs.

    While some may call it hypocrisy, and others just an inconvenient inconsistency, maybe Senator Sanders wrongly agrees with the executive director of the super PAC.



    Is he no better than Hillary?
     
  20. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    Socialist programs employed by a country can and do vary in types, intensity, and raw amount of them. If one is of the belief that even if a country employs one socialist program is has been irreparably tainted and hopelessly drowned in Socialism then I hate to tell you but based on that measure we have been a socialist country since the 1930's. Why ? Because Social Security is a socialist program. So is Unemployment "Insurance" and all forms of welfare and all forms of disability payments which are all forms of transfers of wealth.

    As long as I am at it I will inform you that child labor laws, worker safety laws such a those employed by OSHA, and public school systems.

    So you see folks we have been living in a socialist system for a very long time.

    You know what, public roads, public land, even fire departments are forms of socialism.
     
  21. jack4freedom

    jack4freedom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If the political process was not completely controlled by large moneyed interests, perhaps we could return to a government which represents the rank and file voters as it was designed to do in the first place. At this point, both political parties are owned lock stock and barrel by a small bevy of war profiteering bank swindlers.
     
  22. Fangbeer

    Fangbeer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I whole-heartedly disagree with this current trend toward the attempt to define all government action as socialist. Socialism is government ownership of the means of production. It is an attempt to create a framework for commerce that does not use the free market as a means of distribution of goods and services. It's not the construction of public roads, or sewer systems. It's not law enforcement or fire protection. It's not the military or all regulation of trade. ALL forms of government are instituted to administer these public needs, and many function quite well within a free market economy. But they are certainly not all socialist.

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    Money is an instrument. It represents something. Do you know what it represents?
     
  23. democrack

    democrack Banned

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    When have you observed ANY character , values or morals when dealing with the left ?
     
  24. democrack

    democrack Banned

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    It's in their nature !
     

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