Biden says no tax increases for incomes under $400k- It's not true.

Discussion in 'Elections & Campaigns' started by DentalFloss, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Biden said he will repeal the Trump tax cuts. He also said he won't raise taxes for people earning $400,000 dollars. Biden also characterized the Trump tax cuts as helping the rich and big corporations. Maybe he just wants to repeal the Trump tax cuts for the rich and big corporations, and could have clarified that better.
     
  2. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    What you meant in yours, I was responding to your use of the word, I got a strawman.
    Try again do you believe the role of the tax system to equalize incomes by taking from one person and giving to another?


    But can you point me to a country that has done this, equalized things by taxing or other distribution programs, and had better outcomes for citizens?

    Why should they turn it down, why does taxing the money from targeted citizens have more virtue than those targeted citizens who want to pay more simply doing so.
     
  3. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Everyone knows a system operating on self-interest alone will collapse into anarchy, and revolution.

    Government exists to provide for the common welfare. Taxation prevents wealth accumulating in too few hands, in profit seeking competitive markets. No-one is talking about "equalizing incomes". That's your strawman.

    Every 1st world nation, and also China, a developing nation with socialist government overseeing private enterprise (socialism with Chinese characteristics, some call it capitalism with Chinese characteristics), has a better outcome in terms of social cohesion than the US which is the both the richest country and has the greatest inequality. (China has high inequality but it is still a developing country. Xi Jinping's goal is the eradication of poverty, unlike the US which is content to blame poverty on the victims).

    https://ellenbrown.com/2019/06/14/the-american-dream-is-alive-and-well-in-china/

    "Home ownership has been called “the quintessential American dream.” Yet today less than 65% of American homes are owner occupied, and more than 50% of the equity in those homes is owned by the banks. Compare China, where, despite facing one of the most expensive real estate markets in the world, a whopping 90% of families can afford to own their homes".

    No-one tries to equalize incomes; that's your strawman.

    Sensible government requires planning in the short and long term. Charity is no basis for planning.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  4. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    He says he will repeal the Trump tax rate cuts..................the Bush tax rate cuts. Those tax rate cuts included HUGE tax cuts and additional credits for the lower incomes. If he is not going to repeal the Trump tax rates for the lower incomes then he should say he will keep the Trump rates because that was a great tax cut for them.
     
  5. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    I didn't ask you what everyone else knows I asked you what YOU think.

    Try again do you believe the role of the tax system to equalize incomes by taking from one person and giving to another?


    You believe China has a better outcome for it's citizens the we here in the United States? And yes most socialistic and communistic economic societies and a HUGE income inequality between the socialist and communist who run the government the rest of it's poor citizens.


    Yea just the home I would want to live in with all it's government subsidies

    YOU were the one talking about the inequality. But as usual when pressed on what would be equality and your real goal with the tax system you won't answer.

    And the government is not a charity and any citizen who believes they should be paying more in taxes is perfectly free to do so. Money where mouth is.
     
  6. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    I think the same as everyone who is not a Conservative. Note "Conservatism" by defintion: maintenance of status quo, preserving wealth in the hands of those who have it, bolstered by the lie of 'trickle down' ie, a few crumbs for those at the bottom.

    No. The tax system enables government to provide for the common welfare, and to counteract the natural tendency of self-interested, competitive individuals to claim a greater share of the nation's resources for themselves.

    Yes. China is currently dealing with the poverty of a few remaining families in remote districts, The US is disgustingly hanging onto its inner city ghettos. ("You are living in poverty, your neighborhoods are like war zones, your young men are in prison ...") The neoliberal individual freedom crap of the US is threatening to collapse into civil war, as discovered by the FBI recently when they arrested 13 RW fools, just the tip of the White supremacist iceberg, whose goal was that very outcome. Meantime BLM, motivated by entrenched poverty and high incarceration rates, has attracted world wide support.

    News flash: there are NO remaining "socialist" and communist "governments": China is a capitalist/socialist nation with a government funded central bank. That's why Ellen Brown is correct in her appraisal of China versus the US.

    Clean housing in a secure environment, despite the fact China is still a developing nation; infinitely preferable to ghetto life in the US, with the highest gun violence and incarceration rates in the world. Disgusting.

    And meanwhile China has built the largest high-speed rail network in the world; and Shanghai now boasts the world's fastest commercial train trip (30kms from city to airport; 8mins, reaching 260mph with the latest maglev technology )....the US is still stuck with private cars in traffic jams. Pathetic.

    At least YOU are now talking about inequality...very unusual for a Conservative..

    Inequality results from failure to eradicate poverty, which can be achieved by implementing above poverty full employment.
    (and btw, poverty level welfare doesn't cut it).

    You contradicted yourself. You correctly observed government is not a charity, which means government will not receive charitable donations.

    .........

    But as for money..

    (...an addendum to try and expand your Conservative mind..... how's that for optimism on my part....probably delusional, in fact...)

    For your education, the idea that money itself is wealth and has intrinsic value , this is the orthodox error - the illusion - that Jerome Powell and orthodoxy is content to maintain. Hence the common idea that increasing the quantity of money will result in its devaluation.

    Money is not 'wealth', it is a measure of wealth, and an enabler of convenient exchange of real wealth which is goods and services.

    So the sovereign currency-issuing government doesn't need your money, because it can issue the damn stuff (stuff which has the illusion of value, as I said) . Unlike you and I, who are users of the nation's currency. The limit to the issuance is not the quantity of money, but the available real resources (inc. labour) and the productive capacity (ie to create real goods and services).

    See "The deficit Myth" by Stephanie Kelton: who famously quipped "money doesn't grow on rich people"

    See the illusion yet? The whole tax debate is irrelevant, because a sovereign currency-issuing government doesn't need to tax (or borrow) in order to spend, it just needs to limit its spending to the available real resources and productive capacity of the nation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  7. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    The federal government doesn't prove for the common welfare it provides for the welfare of the government through taxation. It has nothing to do with People. And that you assert the people of China live a better life than the people of the United States leaves me with nothing left to say, I let you stand on that ground.
     
  8. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    MY tax cuts expire in a couple of years anyway. He was referring to the tax cuts on the uber wealthy, which don't expire at all.
     
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  9. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    And that is the inadequacy of the US constitution.

    I didn't say that. I said China is lifting its people out of poverty , as specified by the government's 5-year plans, while the US is descending into hyper-partisanship, gun violence, and the highest incarceration rates in the world.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  10. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the Trump tax cuts for the corps are permanent, the tax cuts for the working class were a temporary carrot

    what Biden will do is end the corp tax cuts and give a permanent tax cut to the working class

    I should say Biden will try, Republicans in congress may block it
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
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  11. Enuf Istoomuch

    Enuf Istoomuch Well-Known Member

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    The problem with the original post is it ignores the fact that no President can repeal an act of Congress. So, no, Biden cannot do any such thing. He must ask his side in the House to propose new legislation. In that new legislation would be whatever provisions and delineations of tax law that survive first the insanity of the House, his own party's factions and finally finds a compromise in the Senate.

    At the end of which whatever was in Trump's tax legislation is besides the point.If new legislation sets some tax law changes at $400K or a billion or lower or higher then that is what happens.

    This is the thing both political parties constantly ignore in all their back and forth hate spewing. They claim the other candidate is going to do a thing or not do a thing. When the reality is all the candidates can do, if they make it into office, is try to get legislation to pass the two houses of Congress.

    So, there is no lie in what Biden says he wants to do, for saying what you want to do is the first step. Whether or not he can make it happen is a different topic.

    On the other hand, it is the most common lie from the lips of every politician who has ever or will ever campaign for an office that they are going to do a thing. Because they cannot do anything other than attempt to lead and gain the legislative support of Congress.
     
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  12. Tahuyaman

    Tahuyaman Well-Known Member

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    Biden lied. I guess you’re buying his lies.
     
  13. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What did he lie about?
     
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  14. Tahuyaman

    Tahuyaman Well-Known Member

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    He lied about not having any knowledge of his son’s business dealings in the Ukraine or China. There’s more. Do you need details?
     
  15. Curious Always

    Curious Always Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I wholeheartedly agree that politicians lie. Lie for lie, though? Trump has probably lied in the last four years more than Biden has in all of his years in DC. If not, it's close.

    Trump lies several times before he's done with his morning poop.
     
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  16. Enuf Istoomuch

    Enuf Istoomuch Well-Known Member

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    There are online databases of Trump lies. It is an astounding collection, vastly exceeding any politician's history of lies and distortions and half truths and misdirection.

    Go ahead, Google "database trump lies", see what happens!

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Enuf Istoomuch

    Enuf Istoomuch Well-Known Member

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    Do not care if he did or did not lie about knowing his son's business activities. There is no crime here. It is entirely lawful to be paid to sit on a corporate board. It is commonplace for corporations to pay people with famous names, or at least well known names, to si ton their board of directors.

    Shokin the dishonest prosecutor who got fired, was known to be corrupt and demands were made for his removal by European countries, te US State Department and anti-corruption activists in his own country.

    No one has shown any connection between, or even found a crime to complain about, in what Biden's troubled son did.

    So far all I see in this laptop hard drive business is a Russian disinformation campaign that the FBI is investigating.Remember, that's Trump's FBI. Trump's FBI sees Russian spycraft all over this thing. Even Rudy Giuliani has admitted he likely dealt with Russian spies in obtaining the hard drive.

    This is a "Wag The Dog" scenario. Pump up a lot of noise about a non-crime, spew out a lot of false moral outrage about a non-crime, then pretend there is a crime or a bigger hidden secret that is somehow a crime.

    It's all Russian crap trying to help Trump.
     
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  18. Tahuyaman

    Tahuyaman Well-Known Member

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    It’s incredible to see liberals so willing to ignore corruption because they agree with the politics of the people involved.
     
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  19. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

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    What it is is the Biden family making a few bucks on the side. After all the sanctimonious accusations of Trump wrong doing and then the DNC settles on this piece of pig **** to represent America? Hunter had nothing to qualify him for any of the foreign deals he was/is involved in except access to his VP father and together they exploited that opportunity. Anybody who needs access to emails to understand that is naive and has led a protected life.
     
  20. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    It is the adequacy of the Constitution and that which allows us our freedoms and liberty and not to be the slaves of government.

    Non-sequitors and yes we in the United States do a better job of protecting the law abiding from the criminals and catching and prosecuting why would it be better if we didn't?
    And feel free to go live in China if you believe it the bastion of freedom and liberty and this higher standard of living. Personally I have no desire to try and emulate them.
     
  21. Enuf Istoomuch

    Enuf Istoomuch Well-Known Member

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    You continue to deflect. There is no crime here. Trump's own FBI suspects and is investigating this as a Russian disinformation effort.

    I am no fan of Biden, I do not want him to be President. Trouble is, Trump is vastly worse. The worst President in our history. The only useful aspect of Trump's time is that the Federalist Society has been so very successful in playing him to get conservative leaning judges appointed to Federal courts. Everything else about Trump is a disaster, and a clear and present danger to the Republic.

    Whatever Biden's flaws they are minuscule next to Trump's. Time to send that useful idiot back to his golf courses and hotels. Biden at least is a decent uman being, for all his flaws as a liberal politician, he is at least that which Trump is not. A decent, thinking, reasoning human being and an American first.

    One thing not among Biden's flaws is this nonsense about Ukraine, Shokin and Burisma.
     
  22. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    The framers were escaping arbitrary rule by the British monarch. Therefore they identified government with oppression, and in so doing, they practically eliminated the proper role of government which is, inter alia, to provide for the common welfare.

    Because self-interested, competitive individuals will always attempt to claim as much of the nation's resources for themselves as possible.

    Hence the inadequacy of this 18th century constitution to deal with present-day global realities and circumstances facing individuals who can no longer make their own way, in frontier lands stolen from the original inhabitants as in the 18th century....

    Non sequiturs?

    Hint: systemic poverty amidst plenty is a cause of social breakdown....and criminality.

    Now, the US imprisons more of its citizens than any other nation..... can you add 1 + 1 ....?

    Again, I have never said China is a bastion of freedom and liberty.
    I said China recognizes the role of government in poverty eradication, which you agree the US constitution fails to address (as discussed above).

    Nor have I said China has a higher standard of living; I said China is lifting its huge population out of poverty at a faster rate than any country in history.

    In fact, given China's performance in the last 4 decades, in the coming decades we CAN expect China to have a high standard of living plus absence of poverty for ALL its citizens, something a purely private-sector driven economy can never achieve.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  23. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

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    I think the Constitution reads to provide for the 'general' welfare not common. That doesn't mean to provide a living for all but to insure a government and a country that protects us all as we pursue our individual lives. the relationship you seem to advocate is more in line with slavery. As to China and it's benevolence toward it's people, we have Taiwan and Hong Kong which are neighbors and both reject the largesse China offers and you seem to admire.
     
  24. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    Federal spending on Social Security will rise from about 5% of GDP to about 6% over the next 30 years, flattening by 2030.

    [​IMG]

    We shouldn't be surprised there is some increase in SS because of the projected population growth.

    [​IMG]

    Medicare and Medicaid are a greater problem (see the first graph).

    P.D. Almost half of Medicaid goes to indigents (people down to their last $2,000) needing skilled nursing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  25. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    If you don't like the idea of "haves" paying more, what are you going to do to solve this problem?

    C6861BFB-EB6F-4C46-B592-88D770E3100C.jpeg
    Canada, Denmark.
    The system is tilted toward people who make money from capital than their labor. How about reversing some of the tilt?

    Bet you don't have an answer to why investors like me should make more in one day off the market than a full-time worker makes in a year. How much longer do you think average folks are going to put up with a system rigged against them?
     

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