Brexit Delay? The EU wants one, the UK does not.

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by The Rhetoric of Life, Mar 31, 2020.

  1. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    That's simply untrue. We couldn't even produce all our own food during the war with a smaller population and strict rationing. We are currently only 76% self-sufficient in food production.
    Our largest agricultural export in terms of money is whisky at £4 billion followed by salmon, cheese, wine, beer and cereals at around £500k each.
    With the exception of cereals these are highly processed and value added products which flatter our ability to produce our own food as imports and exports are measured in terms of money rather than protein or calories.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
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  2. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    This isn't the war any more.
    80 years has passed in which we have mechanised, gained farmland and chemicalised.

    Through the use of fertilzers crop yield are 13 times higher than in 1945.

    We also have pesticides, and genetic modification to add to those improvements.
    Intensive farming.

    We have the worlds highest yields. (bar Lichenstein). Farming is one of the things we do best.


    Also we have gone from small holds to conglomerates. Which means one combine harvester and maintence crew serves serveral farms.
    We have transformed not only our farming technology, but also our farm management.

    We are self sufficent in food.
    Consider how much of what we import is luxuries.
    Champagne for example.
    Caviar.

    These are not essentials. They are luxuries.
    Taragon imports may affect your trade figures, but they don't add much in the way of nutritional value.

    Consider also we are a nation of fatties. We consume more food than we need.


    You will be able to find studies to agree with me. If you can be bothered to Google, I can't myself.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  3. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Man ....
    In both world wars the German U-Boats had you on the balls and without the glorious battle of your Royal Navy you would have had a catastrophic famine. Why? Because you've NEVER produced enough food from your farms in the UK in the past 2 centuries to meet your needs!

    Nothing has changed since then ... Read for yourself :

    https://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/challenge/uk-threat/

    Quote from it:

    The UK is not self-sufficient in food production; it imports 48% of the total food consumed and the proportion is rising. Therefore, as a food-trading nation, the UK relies on both imports and a thriving agricultural sector to feed itself and drive economic growth.

    And before you even think about it to say, the source I showed is crap or so ... which is British by the way ... that's what all sources say!
    And another important point ... because you addressed him indirectly with your "potatoes for rice" etc.:

    It's cheaper to import some foods than to grow them locally (even if they grow well in UK), and the population is too large to be supported entirely by domestic production. Any reduction in imports without compensation leads to price increases for consumers. Likewise: You can't grow citrus fruit or avocados in the UK so you have to import them ... but apparently you patriotically want to force people to do and life without such things or to pay absurd amounts when shopping. Ridiculous!

    Conclusion: With all due respect to always being allowed to freely express your own opinion and to respect other opinions ... can you just stop spreading such ridiculous half-truths and lies like now despite your endless hatred of the EU?
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
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  4. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    We simply aren't self-sufficient in food. You will not be able to find a study which says we are.
    We could be if we ate less meat and didn't use so much land for fodder crops but that's a whole different argument.
     
  5. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Food embargo.

    That's OK mate it's not WW2 any more.
    We have nukes. And you have zero functional submarines.

    We are just going to wipe you off the face of the planet.
    Your next blockade will last all of 2 minutes.


    Self sufficiency in food.


    Can the UK feed itself after Brexit?
    NO says Meurig Raymond, president of the NFU

    “We will never be self-sufficient in food production in the UK,” says Meurig Raymond, president of the NFU. “The population is rising and there is huge demand for crops that cannot be grown here, society has grown used to so much being available all year round. Can we increase self-sufficiency? Definitely.”

    YES says Professor Tim Lang
    “Yes, but it depends on what we eat,” says Professor Tim Lang. “We’ll have to cut eating meat down to once a week. We have to rebuild our horticulture and put more money into primary food production. There has to be a shift in how we grow our food.”

    https://www.countryfile.com/news/can-the-uk-feed-itself-after-brexit/

    (politician says "no", scientist says "yes").




    The price of imported food post Brexit.

    We have no need to be self sufficent in food currently and Brexit will not give us that need.
    Assuming no trade deal is made, the increased food prices from sources in the EU to the UK consumer will be mitigated by lowered food prices from the rest of the world as we leave the customs union.

    Our supermarkets will simply source elsewhere. Buy the cheaper produce from non EU countries.

    Overall food prices will come down as we can source from cheaper markets when we drop our external tariff and trade protections that the EU regime has us currently imposing on the world markets.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  6. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    And again a message from the dream world of the Brexit supporters!
    First you claim against all facts that the UK is not dependent on food imports ... and after you have refuted this stupid claim with pure facts, the realization suddenly comes that you are not dependent on taking care of yourself ... and yes you can buy anywhere outside the EU food.

    Apart from the point that you admit that you claimed nonsense before ... a few more facts:

    In addition to state agreements, contracts and negotiations between the UK and the EU, there are also such things in the economy itself between companies that are also binding and complied with under British law. So if e.g. the British supermarket company "X" has a valid contract with the French food exporter company "Y" ... and then the British supermarket company believes that it is no longer bound by the contract because of failed negotiations with the EU, then the Frenchman can successfully sue the British supermarket in front of every British court for breach of contract under British law ... because Brexit doesn't matter! So far to your "our supermarkets will simply source elsewhere"!

    And otherwise ... of course you can also buy and import your food in the rest of the world. I think that e.g. the American soybean farmers, after the loss of their main customer China, are pleased to supply you with their genetically modified soybeans cheaply. In the EU, they cannot get rid of them without appropriate labeling due to genetic manipulation ... which they do not want to do.
    Only ... apparently you think that you are in some position of power and the EU is dependent on exporting to you the things that you are currently buying from the EU. This is nonsense, because the EU just shrugs its shoulders and it doesn't burden anyone. New customers are found very quickly ... even faster than you find new suppliers, what is lesser easy to do!
    In football you call it own goal what you imagine in your head aout.
     
  7. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

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    The EU as a whole does 11-14% of it's trade with the UK. The UK 44-48% of it's trade with the EU.
    Doesn't take a genius to work out which economy will have the biggest disruption once the UK completely leaves with no deal.
    If I were the EU my attitude to the UK would definitely be 'you hate us as foreigners, go it alone. We will send back your pensioner ex pats and you can send back our valued young workforce. By the way keep out of the EU airspace and every other EU institution you used to be a part of. In short UK...do one'.
    I live in the UK but now I would love to see the most harsh and extreme departure as possible.
    It is what was voted for.
     
  8. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    I live in the UK but I own a little house in France that I want to retire to.
    I hope we get the most Brexit Lite outcome we can.
    I don't want to have to beg permission to live there and I would really like a reciprocal healthcare deal like the one we have now.
    I'm not in favour of cutting off my nose to spite my face.
     
  9. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    We are food independent if we wish to be.
    We do not wish to be or need to be.

    We prefer more diversity in our meals.

    Baked beans are GMO, I have no issues with GMO at all.

    Germany's economy is very export dependent. Yes.
    As their second largest market, we do indeed hold some power over them.
    We can replace their imports, they can't replace our export market.

    We are a net importer from the EU.
    This is a position of negotiating strength that we will exploit.

    New customers are not found very easily.
    When italy was forced to sanction it's food exports to Russia, Rusia easily replaced the food imports, and the Italian farmers went bust.


    We are not at all worried about losing your imports. We are worried about losing your rich marketplaces.
    Those countries with high dispensable incomes who can afford to buy luxuries from us.
    Try finding new people to buy Porsches. You can't. The market for luxury cars is saturated.
    And only the richest people can afford them.
    We have lots of such people here.
    Most of the EU doesn't. Our economy is the equal of the 14 poorest EU countries combined.
    There are not so many top 5 economies out there in the world.
    They are very rare indeed.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
  10. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Lets take cars as an example.
    If we place a 10% tariff on cars sold into the EU and vice versa, because the UK mports 3 EU cars for every car it exports to the EU, the EU will lose 3 jobs for every one UK job lost.
    If you wish to pick that fight with us, we'll take it.
    Go for it.

    Our pensioners living in the EU are rich.
    Your EU unskilled labourers are poor.

    One can buy their own houses and support themelves, the other has to live on housing benefit.
    We'll take one of our rich back in exchange for 3 of your poor.
    No problem. Once again, if you wish to pick that fight with us, we'll take it.
     
  11. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Don't count on British law ruling in your favour.
    And don't count on us not changing that law if it does.

    Nor should you count on our supermarkets renewing any contracts with you.
    Your food is overpriced.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
  12. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    Errmmmm....not so fast paisan...trouble with that is that a lot of their pensions are now worth dogshit against the EUR following the devaluations since Brexit was announced. Also, the blue rinse brigade no longer benefit from the EHIC scheme and will have to buy full health protection and based on the fact that many have pre-existing conditions they probably won't get cover for it. The cost of private medical assistance will further bugger their pensions....so all those that were on not so fertile pensions will be scatching their bollocks wondering what the future holds and contemplating cashing in the golf club membership to pay for the dodgy hip replacement!
     
  13. philosophical

    philosophical Well-Known Member

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    Excellent.
    Lets fight it out.
    Can we agree there will be no mercy whilst we're at it?
    I will be a fifth columnist living in London doing as much to help the EU in the battle as possible, and as much to undermine the UK as possible.
    Not that I will need to do anything to undermine the UK, there are plenty of foreigner haters in the UK doing that already.
    By the way your assertion that the EU folk over here are unskilled labourers says it all doesn't it?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
  14. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    Now we have the c19 problem. It is quiet clear that we will have a recession. The EU can produce a near limitless amount of money.
    They are talking 500 to 750 billions to bailout the economy. The UK now stands alone, has to do it all by itself and probably will end up as one of the hardest hit countries, because of the brilliant management of c19.
    In a few month the UK will stand there as a beggar for any help possible and will take any deal the EU offers.

    It is just a small Island, nothing more.
     
  15. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    Also, many are drawn to places like France, Spain and Portugal by the low cost of housing. My house in France, for example, would fetch nowhere near the price of even the smallest property in the cheapest part of England if I could even sell it at all.
    Those ''rich'' pensioners returning home would likely need some sort of housing benefit in order to put a roof over their heads. They will also put a strain on the NHS as the elderly need far more medical attention than the young migrant workers here who usually return home after a short time having never bothered the healthcare system.
     
  16. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    Lets be honest. The UK does not have a car company, all those companies producing in the UK are foreign owned. The UK car companies went belly up a long time ago and were bought for a penny. If production and export become to expensive, well, they go to the mainland.

    1000,000 employees or so, they should make great field workers to supply the UK with food.

    Just saying.
     
  17. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    The location of the owner is irrelevant just look at Aston Martin; its an iconic brand. The success of the brand is the most important aspect. Its like premier league clubs, do you think that Manchester United or Liverpool are not a UK clubs? UK cars tend to be the high end "super" brands and from memory quite a number of F1 teams are based in the UK...why....because we're phucking good at engineering good cars!
     
  18. gnoib

    gnoib Well-Known Member

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    Aston is a boutique producer, owned by a foreign company, catering to the super rich..
    I love Aston, they are a Icon, that big V12 on the racetrack, just special, but it ain't British owned, owned by the former colony.
    At that luxury class, who cares were it is built, its just a few thousands which get produced.

    Its companies like VW, or Nissan, or Toyota or who ever that make the difference, with 100,000 employees.

    No mayor factory company in the UK is in British hands. They are all owned by foreign companies, even RR and its subdivisions.
    All of them depend on the international market, mainly Europe.
    The UK industry is owned by foreign companies, based on the EU market, if that one is gone, what do you think will happen ?
     
  19. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    About prices ... business is business and of you find cheaper alternatives somewhre else in same quality standard, good for you ... but it let me ice cold, because EU can same way also find better customers as UK too as you can find better vendors. So don't count on the fairy tale that EU relies on exports to UK.

    And about changing laws ... aside fact that your reaction sounds very childish ... wasn't it you who came again and again with WTO rules, eh? Well, please read WTO rules in this matter and then fall into a shameful silence. In football this is called "own goal" what you have written here and now!
     
  20. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Then they can come home.
    And be richer here instead of less rich there.

    My generalisation holds.
    These people have gone to the EU with money. The means to support themselves.
    Not come to the UK with nothing.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  21. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Correct.The EU can replace our exports to them too.

    Of course we don;t actually make so many exports to EU countries and th0 ebulk of those that we do (most financial services) are not covered by EU treaties, so it's not such a nightmare for us as it is for you.
    Nor is the same amount of our national economy dependent on exports as yours is.

    So here is what we will do.
    We will use the WTO system to tariff your goods.( Or a new trade deal).
    So that we have a more balanced trade.

    If you stop buying our goods we will stop buying even more of your goods than we would otherwise stop buying.

    You will be losing marketshare.
    How much marketshare you lose will depend on how bloody minded you are.
    We are 100% bloody minded and will go all the way with you.
    Far beyond a trade war and into a total war if that is what it takes to get you off our backs.

    It's your move.
    You can make a trade deal with us for mutual benefit, you can go WTO for limited benefit, Or you can full suicide.
    Any which way, you lose from the position you are in now. Take that part as given and do yourself the favour of damage limitation.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  22. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Ownership is not the key concern.
    Shareholders may live in any country. BMW is a German brand but it is a global company.

    Anyone anywhere in the world may own BMW shares.
    A BMW built in South Afirca would have zero import duties to pay in the UK. because we have a free trade deal with them.
    While a BMW built in Germany or Austria may end up with a 10% tax on it's price.

    So EU made models would expect to see a drop in sales, while S African ones would not.
    If we make a trade deal wih the USA, India or China, BMW models made in those countries could see a rise in UK sales.
    BMW has also suggested moving production of UK popular models to the UK to get inside our tariff barrier.

    Most of the price of manufacture is wages.
    The people who make the largest profits out of a car company are it's employees.
    Followed by the local taxman.
    The share holders, the owners, perhaps take 3% per year between them.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  23. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    And again only a bunch of half truth and lies ... o dear, where shall I start?

    First of all, 45% of your exports go into the EU ... and this is not including financial services, these are goods whoch you can touch!

    Secondly ... it is you again and again who blames the EU for the fishing right demand in UK waters they have ... BUT that the UK demanded FIRST these rights t have in any waters of EU member states, you still hide. So ... there is a will of contract with UK existing ... but I have reasoned doubts that such a will exists at you and your BREXIT government ... because you are making still these outrageous cherry picking demands as you still did all the time since Brexit votum.
    Get it in your head ... UK isn't in the position to make such silly and outrageous demands, because UK is in comparison to the EU as a whole only a dwarf!
    And that you hide constantly the second half of facts as with these fishing rights is like an evidence, that UK isn't interested for any contract at all, if they are not handled by the EU like the Ex-super power UK with the huge Empire of once and what is gone for ever ... or in other words, that the EU surrenders to any UK will, because you are the UK!

    If you impose any tariffs by WTO rules, the EU will do right the same to you and be sure, this will harm you hard in the UK!
     
  24. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    yes....its that simple......
     
  25. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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    ..... so what? Most successful companies have passed from the hands of their founders in order to flourish and grow; any company listed on the stock exchange for example.
    Takeovers tend to benefit companies and based on the global scale of business, finance and innovation who gives a toss whether the owners are British, international or institutional shareholders! Take Aston Martin as an example - before they were first taken over they were a financial basket case with no money and no prospects and then started the long road back to profitability and becoming the Brand they are now. If they had remained as a jolly good old British company there wouldn't be "that big V12 on the racetrack" just a memory yet another crappy British car company that fell by the wayside.

    The UBO of a company is to all intents irrelevant the main point is its profitability, prospects, and to whom it pays taxes.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020

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